Topic: A Christian is... (Read 2604 times)

The Sasquatch · « **on:** February 05, 2007, 12:45:14 PM »

Following the fun in the "What is atheism" thread (here), I would like to continue my attempt to better understand atheists by asking them to define a Christian. A couple rules for all of us:

1) I promise not to respond unless you ask me a direct question. For instance, if you say "A Christian is one who clubs baby seals and wears the skin to dance clubs in hopes of picking up women," I will not respond no matter how much i disagree. However, if you ask me if, in my opinion, that is an appropriate definition, I will let you know what I think.

B) Please state something you believe is indicative of all or most christians, not just a few. For instance, please don't say "A Christian is one who gets his own public television program to preach/aimlessly pluck the banjo for the unwashed masses" since that isn't a good definition for the majority of Christians (just the majority of Christians on public television).

blue) If, however, you believe something wacko like that really is a characteristics all Christians share, by all means ... let us know. but remember ...

$) If you have an idea you wish to share, pleae give us some reason for your conclusion. For instance, if you believe most Christians are or should be politically conservative, tell us why you believe that. If it's because that has been your overwhelming experience, please say so. If you read it in the Bible, please tell us where.

Thanks. I look forward to reading your opinions.

Righteous Goy · « **Reply #1 on:** February 10, 2007, 09:36:50 PM »

"CHRISTIAN" DEFINED

A Christian is an individual who believes an ordinary man to be G-d. A Christian believes in the trinity (three gods). And a Christian believes a human sacrifice was required by G-d.

-Thomas Roper, Orthodox Jew (Ex-Baptist Minister)
__________________

CHRISTIAN \Chris"tian\, n.

One who believes that the New Testament is a divinely inspired book admirably suited to the spiritual needs of his neighbor. One who follows the teachings of Christ so far as they are not inconsistent with a life of sin.

-Unabashed Christian Bible Dictionary
__________________

Christians will just smile in pride when they hear the word evangelist. However, to Jews there is no smile, just fear.

According to the American Heritage Dictionary:

EVANGELISM \ e*van

Deep Thought · « **Reply #2 on:** February 11, 2007, 12:44:48 AM »

I hope that's not an honest answer, R.G., 'cause it's only half the story.

A Christian... well, I'd say something along the lines of "someone who truly, in their heart, believes..." et cetera, so on, and so forth, but we can't measure that, can we?

That is what I would consider to be a "true" Christian (setting aside whether or not Christianity itself is true), but if we're talking definitions, I'd say I consider everyone who professes faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God (whatever beliefs that profession happens to entail) to be "Christian." That definition acknowledges that some "Christians" are hypocrites, others are oddballs, others may be maniacs, others are only half-believers, and others are quite reasonable and/or nice people all around.

TheDoctor · « **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2007, 09:12:43 AM »

Quote from: Deep Thought on February 11, 2007, 12:44:48 AM

That definition acknowledges that some "Christians" are hypocrites, others are oddballs, others may be maniacs, others are only half-believers, and others are quite reasonable and/or nice people all around.

Does one have to be "nice" to be a Christian?

The Sasquatch · « **Reply #4 on:** February 11, 2007, 10:43:23 AM »

Quote

That definition acknowledges that some "Christians" are hypocrites, others are oddballs, others may be maniacs, others are only half-believers, and others are quite reasonable and/or nice people all around.

Clarification. Do you believe a real Christian can be a hypocrite/oddball/maniac? Do you believe a real Christian can be a half-believer? Do you believe that real Christians are nice/reasonable all the time?

Copernicus · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2007, 02:32:04 PM »

Quote from: Deep Thought on February 11, 2007, 12:44:48 AM

That is what I would consider to be a "true" Christian (setting aside whether or not Christianity itself is true), but if we're talking definitions, I'd say I consider everyone who professes faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God (whatever beliefs that profession happens to entail) to be "Christian." That definition acknowledges that some "Christians" are hypocrites, others are oddballs, others may be maniacs, others are only half-believers, and others are quite reasonable and/or nice people all around.

I think that the vast majority of Christians believe in the divinity of Christ, but that excludes many of the earliest Christians. During the 4th century, blood was spilled over the question of whether Christ was divine, and much of the so-called Gnostic tradition was purged from the religion, although pockets remained for a few centuries longer. Nowadays, the debate has been renewed by both archaeological discoveries such as the Nag Hammadi scripts and the growing number of Christians who take a more liberal attitude about how literally to interpret scripture.

In broad terms, a Christian is someone who considers himself or herself a follower of Christ and his teachings, regardless of whether that person believes that Christ was actually born of a virgin that was caused to be pregnant by God. So I would definitely include Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses to be Christians, although many Christians would debate that question.

One thing I won't do is try to characterize all Christians as unreasonable, ignorant, stupid, irrational, or as possessing any other defective personality trait. I think that we all have our flaws, and Christians are a very heterogeneous bunch of people.

Righteous Goy · « **Reply #6 on:** February 11, 2007, 10:44:15 PM »

ARE YOU A

Copernicus · « **Reply #7 on:** February 11, 2007, 11:28:54 PM »

Why isn't this thread in the Christian forum? It has nothing to do with atheism.

Deep Thought · « **Reply #8 on:** February 11, 2007, 11:41:21 PM »

Cop:

Because the question was directed at atheists, and where better to be heard by atheists?

Goy:

You don't mince words, do you? Still, I would like to hear your own honest beliefs in your own words, so I can be sure of how much of what you quote is what you believe.

Righteous Goy · « **Reply #9 on:** February 12, 2007, 09:26:31 AM »

In broad terms, a Christian is someone who considers himself or herself a follower of Christ and his teachings, regardless of whether that person believes that Christ was divine or actually born of a virgin that was caused to be pregnant by God. So I would definitely include Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses to be Christians, although many Christians would debate that question. I believe the original christian church to be the Roman Catholic Church. I believe only they have Apostolic Succession. All other churches are protestant, (defined as "having protested against Catholic doctrine or dogma.") The Church may excommunicate members of a protestation, with whatever restriction that might entail. Unless, that is, they finally come around to (again) accepting the Catholic Church's rulings, plus any punishment(s) the Church might impose upon (former) protestants.

Copernicus · « **Reply #10 on:** February 12, 2007, 12:32:25 PM »

Quote from: Deep Thought on February 11, 2007, 11:41:21 PM

Cop:

Because the question was directed at atheists, and where better to be heard by atheists?

But most of the people answering here are not atheists. Moreover, atheists publish freely in the Christian forum. I think that the original intent of the OP was to get atheists to espouse the stereotype that they have of Christians. But we've tended to get a more general discussion of just what it means to be a Christian--from anybody's perspective.

Anyway, I suppose that it doesn't really matter which forum you put this in. It'll attract the same crowd of frequent posters. :)

Copernicus · « **Reply #11 on:** February 12, 2007, 12:42:31 PM »

Quote from: Righteous Goy on February 12, 2007, 09:26:31 AM

In broad terms, a Christian is someone who considers himself or herself a follower of Christ and his teachings, regardless of whether that person believes that Christ was divine or actually born of a virgin that was caused to be pregnant by God. So I would definitely include Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses to be Christians, although many Christians would debate that question.

I believe the original christian church to be the Roman Catholic Church. I believe only they have Apostolic Succession. All other churches are protestant, (defined as "having protested against Catholic doctrine or dogma.") The Church may excommunicate members of a protestation, with whatever restriction that might entail. Unless, that is, they finally come around to (again) accepting the Catholic Church's rulings, plus any punishment(s) the Church might impose upon (former) protestants.

RG, I separated what I think was your intent--to cite my earlier words and then respond to them. It came across as a single, undifferentiated paragraph.

My response to you is that the phrase "original church" is prejudicial. You have completely ignored the basic distinction between Roman Catholicism, Greek Orthodoxy, Marianites, Coptic Christians, and other surviving vestiges of the earlier diversity. All of these groups, more or less, now seem to adhere to the Nicene Creed, which existed before the Roman Catholic Church came into existence. What is largely absent today is any historical representative of the so-called Gnostic traditions, which were not a homogeneous movement. Some religious historians have pointed out that the so-called "Gnostics" may even have constituted the majority of Christians in the first two centuries, since Christendom had no government backing to help it coalesce into a dominant orthodoxy.

TheDoctor · « **Reply #12 on:** February 12, 2007, 01:07:58 PM »

Quote from: Copernicus on February 12, 2007, 12:32:25 PM

Quote from: Deep Thought on February 11, 2007, 11:41:21 PM
Cop:

Because the question was directed at atheists, and where better to be heard by atheists?

But most of the people answering here are not atheists. Moreover, atheists publish freely in the Christian forum. I think that the original intent of the OP was to get atheists to espouse the stereotype that they have of Christians. But we've tended to get a more general discussion of just what it means to be a Christian--from anybody's perspective.

Anyway, I suppose that it doesn't really matter which forum you put this in. It'll attract the same crowd of frequent posters. :)

This is a fine place for the discussion to take place, particularly since Sasq has directed the question more towards atheists than Christians.

The Sasquatch · « **Reply #13 on:** February 12, 2007, 03:18:06 PM »

Quote

I think that the original intent of the OP was to get atheists to espouse the stereotype that they have of Christians.

The intent of the original poster (me) was to have atheists (or agnostics or whatever) to say what they think a Christian is. I'm not trying ot be underhanded. I'm not trying to get you to agree to a particular definition, I'm not trying to expose steroetypes, and I'm not trying to lure you into a trap about what a "true" Christian is. I'm just trying to understand what you think a Christian is.

Deep Thought · « **Reply #14 on:** February 12, 2007, 05:06:36 PM »

Quote from: The Sasquatch on February 11, 2007, 10:43:23 AM

Quote
That definition acknowledges that some "Christians" are hypocrites, others are oddballs, others may be maniacs, others are only half-believers, and others are quite reasonable and/or nice people all around.

Clarification. Do you believe a real Christian can be a hypocrite/oddball/maniac? Do you believe a real Christian can be a half-believer? Do you believe that real Christians are nice/reasonable all the time?

No, I made (or tried to make) a clear division between what I think constitutes a rough definition for "true" Christian, and what the word "Christian" may be used to describe. Naturally, however, some who fall into my "true Christian" category may also fall into the "oddball" and "maniac" folders, as well... mainly because they actually believe what they believe, be it merely Christ's divinity or an eccentric or twisted perception of His wishes.

Copernicus · « **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2007, 02:31:01 AM »

Quote from: TheDoctor on February 12, 2007, 01:07:58 PM

This is a fine place for the discussion to take place, particularly since Sasq has directed the question more towards atheists than Christians.

Be that as it may, I am the only atheist who has so far had any interest in replying to the OP. Why not ask atheists what they think a Buddhist or a Shintoist is? They are all people who consider themselves followers of some religious creed. Atheists are people who reject all religious creeds.

The Sasquatch · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2007, 02:56:23 PM »

Quote

Why not ask atheists what they think a Buddhist or a Shintoist is?

Because I didn't want to.

Copernicus · « **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2007, 06:53:08 PM »

Quote from: The Sasquatch on February 13, 2007, 02:56:23 PM

Quote
Why not ask atheists what they think a Buddhist or a Shintoist is?
Because I didn't want to.

That was a rhetorical question, Sasq. From an atheist's perspective, there isn't much difference between Christians and followers of other macroreligions. Although you deny it, your question seemed to be asking for us to lay out some kind of stereotype of a Christian, when, in fact, Christians are an extremely varied bunch of individuals with some very different beliefs concerning their religion. They are constantly arguing with each other over how to define the core doctrines of their religion and how to construe the nature of their god. I find exactly the same types of individuals in the other major religions--Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. In the end, a Christian is just somebody who claims to be a follower/devotee/worshipper of Christ. Most, but not all, Christians share the view that Christ was divine and that the Nicene Creed outlines some of the basic principles of the religion.

The Sasquatch · « **Reply #18 on:** February 14, 2007, 09:11:09 AM »

Cop:

A couple of comments...

Quote

Be that as it may, I am the only atheist who has so far had any interest in replying to the OP.

No. DT beat you to the punch.

Quote

That was a rhetorical question, Sasq.

Good. It was a rhetorical answer! (wait...is there such a thing as a rhetorical answer?)

Quote

From an atheist's perspective, there isn't much difference between Christians and followers of other macroreligions.

Why not? From a Christian perspective, there is a great deal of difference between Muslims and Hindus, Jews and Bhuddists. Do you not see these differences? I also see a great many similarities between Christians and atheists. Do you see that as well?

Quote

Although you deny it, your question seemed to be asking for us to lay out some kind of stereotype of a Christian, when, in fact, Christians are an extremely varied bunch of individuals with some very different beliefs concerning their religion.

Once again ... I'm not asking you to read between the lines and come up with something you think I'm really asking. My words were plain. My question was plain. I'm not trying ot be underhanded. Tell me what you (that is you, personally) think a Christian is. The degree to which you agrree or disagree with other atheists (or Christians ... or whatever) is perfectly fine.

Quote

They are constantly arguing with each other over how to define the core doctrines of their religion and how to construe the nature of their god.

What do you mean by "construe"?

Quote

In the end, a Christian is just somebody who claims to be a follower/devotee/worshipper of Christ. Most, but not all, Christians share the view that Christ was divine and that the Nicene Creed outlines some of the basic principles of the religion.

Thank you.

Anyone else?

Copernicus · « **Reply #19 on:** February 14, 2007, 04:39:00 PM »

Quote from: The Sasquatch on February 14, 2007, 09:11:09 AM

From an atheist's perspective, there isn't much difference between Christians and followers of other macroreligions.

Why not? From a Christian perspective, there is a great deal of difference between Muslims and Hindus, Jews and Bhuddists. Do you not see these differences? I also see a great many similarities between Christians and atheists. Do you see that as well?

I honestly see little difference between Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and Christians in terms of religious beliefs. All break down into liberal, conservative, and fundamentalist groups. All have their fanatics who are willing to kill and die for the faith. All trot out the same rationalizations for their faith, although the particulars differ according to various scriptures and doctrinal interpretations. All are convinced that their faith makes more sense than all the others. And all are equally wrong in that regard.

Quote

Once again ... I'm not asking you to read between the lines and come up with something you think I'm really asking. My words were plain. My question was plain. I'm not trying ot be underhanded. Tell me what you (that is you, personally) think a Christian is. The degree to which you agrree or disagree with other atheists (or Christians ... or whatever) is perfectly fine.

Then why ask the question specifically of atheists and specifically about Christianity? Why would lack of belief in gods affect one's view of Christianity in particular? You can ask the same question about Hindus. What do atheists think a Hindu is? The answer would be the same as for Christians. Follower of religion X is someone who believes himself or herself to adhere to the principles of religion X. Since atheists have no doctrinal axes to grind, they don't usually care who sets themselves up as authorities on what the principles of religion X are.

Quote

They are constantly arguing with each other over how to define the core doctrines of their religion and how to construe the nature of their god.
What do you mean by "construe"?

I mean "interpret" or "make sense of". For example, some Christians believe that the commandment against killing enjoins them from joining an army or favoring capital punishment or abortion, whereas others believe that interpretation to be false. How should one construe the commandment against killing? I hope that that helps.

Author Topic: A Christian is... (Read 2604 times)