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Author Topic: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series  (Read 8007 times)

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Copernicus

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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2007, 06:07:50 PM »
Quote from: sntjohnny on December 07, 2007, 07:11:19 PM
"I do think that the interview generally supports my contention that the trilogy is a kind of warmed-over supernaturalism, where "Dust" is almost a metaphor for the real God."

Dust, in the series, belongs to the observable universe.  You do remember them observing it, do you not?  God as Christians understand him is utter ground of all reality.  He permeates all of creation.  You couldn't possibly say that 'this' is the essence of God but 'that' isn't.  This would be immanence.

Who cares?  Dust played the role of a supernatural being in the HDM series.  Pullman explained it clearly in the Chattaway interview.

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The most telling reason to think that Pullman is off target about what Christians say about God is that the incarnation is utterly absent from his series.  He does reference the possibility that there might actually be a 'Creator' in a couple of places in the series, possibly to hedge his bets.  Mary Malone, a former nun and one presumably educated in Christianity as we know it in our universe, is unable to recognize that the "Authority" she is fighting cannot by definition be the Christian God.  If she knew her stuff she would know that this entity was an imposter from the start.  (She would also know that Christians believe that God created sex, so she wouldn't make out that Chrisitans believe that sexual pleasure out as a forbidden fruit, either).

She seemed to have exactly the view of God that most Catholics do.  Just because you want to quibble with her theology, that doesn't make her religious thoughts unrealistic.  Not all Christians subscribe to your theology and have come to your conclusions about the nature of God.  That goes for Protestants as well as Catholics.  There is nothing unrealistic or erroneous about Pullman's fictional depiction of a former nun. 

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Incidentally, the editors of the HDM fan club have indicated that I actually have the most intelligent response they'd seen to that point out there by Christians.

I think, Cop, that blather is probably in the eye of the beholder.  ;)

Here is their blog post.

Thanks for the reference.  The HDM fan club seemed impressed by your advice to call off the boycott, which you correctly saw as doing nothing to harm sales of the books and movie tickets.
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End Bringer

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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2007, 01:50:41 PM »
The Compass Movie Doesn't Capture the Spirit of the Novel.

http://www.str.org/site/PageServer?pagename=blog_a
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Copernicus

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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2007, 08:05:08 PM »
Quote from: End Bringer on December 09, 2007, 01:50:41 PM
The Compass Movie Doesn't Capture the Spirit of the Novel.

http://www.str.org/site/PageServer?pagename=blog_a

It isn't clear to me that the film, as described on the blog (I haven't seen it), differs from the book in ways that are truly significant.  Pullman had a much scarier version of Lyra's plight, and I don't think that the complexity of Mrs. Coulter and Lord Asriel would have carried as well for the first installment.  Books 2 and 3 are likely to be much more important, and I do wonder how they are going to tone down the religious message, which is likely to evoke much stronger reactions than this first film.  In fact, the reviews I have seen assign it mediocre to mildly positive reviews.
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2007, 02:22:29 PM »
"She seemed to have exactly the view of God that most Catholics do. "

That is ridiculous and false on its face.  Unless by 'most Catholics' you mean the fellah who only attended Catholic confirmation class and then never set foot in a church or in a learning institution.  Mary Malone was supposed to be a NUN.  You find me even a single current nun who  believes about God the way Mary Malone presented it and I'll send you $10.00.

"The HDM fan club seemed impressed by your advice to call off the boycott, which you correctly saw as doing nothing to harm sales of the books and movie tickets."

Phew!  Correctly saw?!?  Good thing I had you holding my hand on that one, eh?  ;)

You saw my previous posts here?

Anyway... Dust in the series is not an analog for 'supernatural' as Christians contend for God's supernatural nature.

It just isn't, and if he thinks it does it doesn't matter, except to show that he doesn't grasp Christian theology.

God is the source and ground for everything.  He alone is non-contingent.  He transcends his creation and is fully immanent within it at the same time.  As a consequence, strictly speaking you could never point to anything within the observable universe and say "here is a supernatural thing." 

When Jesus walked on water you saw what was reasonably inferred to be a supernatural event.  Jesus was fully God but fully human.  The event validates his claim to be divine but Jesus' appearance was not 'supernatural.'  The water was not supernatural.  Jesus' body was not 'supernatural.'

Strictly speaking- and here I will acknowledge that Christians get sloppy- even the angels aren't supernatural entities.

It all depends on whether or not we are being technical or not, and I am.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 02:27:50 PM by sntjohnny »
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Copernicus

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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2007, 02:01:36 AM »
Quote from: sntjohnny on December 11, 2007, 02:22:29 PM
That is ridiculous and false on its face.  Unless by 'most Catholics' you mean the fellah who only attended Catholic confirmation class and then never set foot in a church or in a learning institution.  Mary Malone was supposed to be a NUN.  You find me even a single current nun who  believes about God the way Mary Malone presented it and I'll send you $10.00.

What's with the proposed bets, all the time?  Do you think that this makes your position sound any more credible than if you just "double dare" me?  You have said nothing at all that would lead me to take your denial seriously.  In the context of the book, that version of Yahweh was real.  You can quibble over theology all you like, but fiction authors have a certain license to shape the premises and realities of their tales.  Pullman's understanding of theology is reasonable for the kind of Christians he is talking about, including putative Catholic nuns.

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Anyway... Dust in the series is not an analog for 'supernatural' as Christians contend for God's supernatural nature.

It just isn't, and if he thinks it does it doesn't matter, except to show that he doesn't grasp Christian theology.

Balderdash.

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God is the source and ground for everything.  He alone is non-contingent.  He transcends his creation and is fully immanent within it at the same time.  As a consequence, strictly speaking you could never point to anything within the observable universe and say "here is a supernatural thing."

Pullman was describing a fictional world in which God was as he described him.  He was not buying into your theological ideals.  Why should he?

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When Jesus walked on water you saw what was reasonably inferred to be a supernatural event.  Jesus was fully God but fully human.  The event validates his claim to be divine but Jesus' appearance was not 'supernatural.'  The water was not supernatural.  Jesus' body was not 'supernatural.'

If 'supernatural' has any meaning at all to distinguish it from 'natural', then those miracles were 'supernatural'.  They contravened the laws of nature, which Jesus, but not ordinary humans, had the power to circumvent.

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Strictly speaking- and here I will acknowledge that Christians get sloppy- even the angels aren't supernatural entities.

I think that you are just going down your usual path of quibbling over shades of meaning in order to avoid addressing the substantive issues.

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It all depends on whether or not we are being technical or not, and I am.

I think that you are being picayune.
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Trent

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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2008, 04:28:37 AM »
Egad, that's a lot of debate. I'm too bleary-eyed to read through it all now, but I would like to participate in this one. I read His Dark Materials some time ago, and remember enjoying it. I also remember that it made me think somewhat about my own beliefs as an atheist, but whether or not it had any direct impact on those beliefs eventually becoming what they are now, I can't clearly recall.

I've been meaning to pick up a copy of these books and brush up before I saw the movies. I guess I have another excuse...
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2008, 02:15:38 PM »
I am pretty certain that it had an impact on your arrival at where you are.  To what degree, I'm not sure.  Call it an educated guess. 

I no longer have my copies of the books.  My convo would be from memory at this point and probably a little more tentative where my notes didn't cover things.
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Copernicus

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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2008, 03:59:58 PM »
OK, what did you do with those books, sntjohnny?  A big public book-burning?   [smile
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2008, 09:58:19 PM »
heh I sent them back to the library where they came from.  :) 
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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2008, 10:54:09 PM »
So you're saying you burned down a library? Why wasn't I invited?
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Copernicus

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Re: A Response to Pullman's His Dark Materials Series
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2008, 05:07:58 PM »
Quote from: sntjohnny on June 03, 2008, 09:58:19 PM
heh I sent them back to the library where they came from.  :) 

Oh.  Same fate that befell my copies.   :-)
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