hehhehheh

huh.  I may have missed it, but I didn't see that in anything that she said.

But SHE did not justify it, so your argument, as directed to her, is without merit.

But that's the reason we began to examine this line of reasoning in the first place, sntjohnny. Remember? POE?

Can moral evil be justified on the basis that it is all a part of God's plan or that it brings us closer to God, i.e., that it exists for a greater good?

I argue no. [see replies above.]

I didn't justify evil on the basis that it is part of God's plan either, Cog.  That's part of what's taking me so long to reply.  How do I explain this so you can see where I'm coming from.  I believe God does take evil and twists it for good.  I also didn't say that suffering brings everyone closer to God.  I only said that it did bring me closer to Him.  I suppose that suffering only counts as suffering if you die/are permanently physically maimed iyo?  I said that God twisted the evil in my life to good ends.  I don't believe that evil exists for the greater good.  I believe God works for the greater good despite evil.

What is the greatest possible good?

So you do not believe that evil things are not evil in God's grand scheme but you do believe that God uses evil to further good purposes?

OK.

So God uses evil to further good purposes; thus, evil is not evil in the long run if it all works out for the best in the end. I think we are saying roughly the same thing here.

No.  We aren't.  I under no circumstances agree that evil is not evil just because God can twist it (which is what I mean when I say use it - I do not mean He is actually causing it) to good ends, nor does God excuse evil just because He can twist it for good ends.

So when a young mother is killed by a drunk driver it's in the young mother's best interest in what way? What good purpose in HER life (which just ended) will that evil event further?

I could speculate in a hundred ways that would, without question based on your post, highly offend you.  Since I don't relish offending you, I won't continue.

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He also doesn't let evil actions bring about only evil ends.

There you go again. You are trying to justify evil actions by pretending that some good will come of it. . . somehow. . . someway. . . someday.

This is the very thing that you denied to begin with. But despite your earlier denial, it seems that indeed you do believe that the evil that God allows serves some higher purpose (even though you balk at phrasing it quite that way).

I do believe that God takes evil things we choose to do and uses them to further good purposes, just as He takes the good things we do and uses them to further good purposes. God does not make people do evil to further good purposes, He also doesn't let evil actions bring about only evil ends.

Assuming, for a moment, the existence of God as attested to in the Bible, would you prefer He chose not to take evil things and twist them bring about good in any way?  Why do you think that His being able to twist evil for good somehow actually justifies the evil actions?

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Everyone who does evil will have to stand before God and answer for it one day.

You don't know that. You can't know that. You can only have FAITH about that -- which is precisely what I wrote.

Yes, I have faith about this.  Firmly.  Yes, it is faith, because such a judgement has never yet been witnessed.  It will be a terrible and wonderful day.  Those clothed in the perfect righteousness of Christ will stand justified before God.  They won't deserve it; no one does.  It will be wonderful.  Those who try to stand up in their own supposed righteousness will, as they demand, be judged according to their own righteousness and lack thereof.  It will be terrible.

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Yes, free will is tied up in this to a certain extent. God granted free will to choose Him or choose against Him from the beginning. He chose to make us capable of, but not destined to commit, evil. To utterly prevent the occurance of evil would be to make us little better than puppets.

Do you see what you just did? You first wrote that God gave us freedom to choose and then you shifted and wrote about God's preventing our freedom to act.

Freedom to choose and freedom to act are two different things. Did you read the opening post in this thread? Just because I intend to kill you doesn't mean that I will kill you. Intention is not action. My gun might jam. My aim might be off. You might kill me first. Any number of things might prevent my free will choice from becoming actualized.

So when our intentions aren't realized (and BTW some of our intentions are not realized on a daily basis) does this mean that we should feel as if we are little more than puppets?

Of course it doesn't!

Intentions not being realized doesn't mean we haven't acted.  It just didn't turn out the way we planned.  Also, you misunderstood me.

What is evil?

Have you thought deeply about your own personal feeling of free will? Exactly what would it take for you to believe that you were being controlled by another force? Probably nothing short of mind control. Probably nothing short of your hearing another voice in your head informing you that it was in control of your body and then demonstrating that it indeed was in control.

Certainly, virtually no event that happens in the external world will make you believe that you have no choice in how your life unfolds. This is because all the time, every minute of our lives our actions are restricted. We are accustom to having our wills denied. The hard truth is we have very limited freedom to act. We have freedom to choose (or at least the illusion of the freedom to choose, which in practice amounts to about the same thing) but not a corresponding freedom to act on that choice.

If God does not want to alter free will then why does He intervene in the world at all? Why does He answer only some prayers? Doesn't He know that by doing so He will likely sway the person whose prayer He answers toward belief and isn't this the very thing that you say that He doesn't want to do, i.e., affect that person's free will choice?

Have you read cimics' posts?  Read them.

You lack imagination, Maj.

This may be the most accurate charge you have against me . (at least in this thread)

I believe God does take evil and twists it for good.

So how does God "twist" the evil inherent in small children starving to death in the Sudan into something that justifies the starving to death of those small children?

I don't know if any of you have small children but if you do what in your view will justify their being killed slowly and painfully while you watch?

I do know this. I have suffered. I am - as I'm sure you knew - the person I described above. Frankly, I don't give a rat's hind end if you call it suffering or not. Unless your upbrining was worse, you have no basis to say one word about mine.

I know you've suffered, Liz. What's more, I know the chances are excellent that you have more suffering to look forward to in your future. I know this not because of your personal experience. I know this because you are human. If it makes you feel any better (and I know that it won't) know that millions if not billions have suffered as much as or more than you have. Ironically, your unjustified suffering is probably why you invented your God/protector/avenger in the first place.

Bad things happen to good people in this world every second of everyday and none of those people "deserve" them any more than you do. Still, "undeserved" suffering is not justification to believe in fantasy, no matter how tempting or soothing the fantasy might be.

Just because evil and injustice are facts in this life of ours is not the first reason to believe that there will be another life somewhere, sometime in which they are not, no matter how much we may wish that to be true.

I know that God has healed me from the scars I once bore. God has changed me. If it weren't for Him, I would either have killed myself or been divorced by now. I know that. Knowing how wonderful and loving God has been with me, knowing that I'm not some special person that He's poured His love out on me but won't love someone else, I know that He is willing and able to do that for everyone. And so, I trust Him.

And what would be different in the above scenario if God did not actually exist but were only a psychological construct? Could a person get through what you've experienced if she convinced herself that ultimate justice was a fact, that all wrongs would be put right one day, and that her suffering had a purpose, irrespective of any god's actual existence?

If so, would that person be strongly psychologically motivated to hold such a belief?

Is that faith? Yes and no. Yes in the same way that I have faith that my car will start because it hasn't happened yet.

But your car may not start tomorrow morning. Does this mean that God may not exist? If it does, then what are the reasons that you believe that your car will start tomorrow and that God exists?

The only reasons that you believe your car will start are because it started today and yesterday and the day before, etc.; the battery and ignition system are in good shape, as far as you know; the gas tank contains fuel; etc.

When you say that you have "faith" that your car will start you mean that you believe that by your turning a key in the ignition, the ignition system will produce an electrical discharge that will result in a continuing series of explosions in your car's engine cylinders. You have this "faith" (which I would call "justified belief") only because you have observed the occurrence of this phenomenon many times in the past.

So what have you observed in a similar fashion to justify God's existence?

Nothing.

What you call "God" is nothing more than the experience that you've had in recovering from personal tragedy by your coming to hold a belief that ultimate justice will prevail (even though you have no experience of ultimate justice prevailing), that all wrongs will one day be righted (even though you have no experience of all wrongs being righted), and that all suffering has a purpose (even though there is no discernable purpose in much suffering).

God in this case clearly is nothing more than your unjustified belief that things will ultimately turn out the way that you want them to turn out because you cannot continue to live if you believe otherwise.

Starvation is a political problem, not a lack of food problem.

. . . and?

People have a tendency to blame God when crappy things happen.

False. People have a tendency to give God credit when they luck out, when things go well, etc. But when things go badly, people blame luck, nature, Satan, the government, and probably somewhere near the bottom of that list you'll find God.

Theists "thank" God a million times more often that they curse God. This is just simple observation (and commonsense).

But, God does not withhold food from those people. Their government - and our government does.

So is God not omnipotent, after all? Can he not make bread rain from the sky? Can he not feed multitudes with five loaves and two fishes?

How much easier is it for God than for our government to feed those starving masses?

I find it curious that you're not railing against the wealthy people who have jewel-lined swimming pools. Do you know how much starvation could be eliminated if they only gave up their pools? They can keep the rest of their wealth, just give up the pools. Or, build a 10,000 sq ft house instead of a 20,000 sq ft house.

But I do rail against them.

Oddly enough, most of those people would identify themselves as Christians. Unlike sntjohnny, do you rail against them, too? Does this mean that you and he have different interpretations of Jesus' "eye of a needle" metaphor? If so, then which one of you has failed to use literary interpretation theory correctly?  

Most Americans have the means to stop starvation in other countries yet they stand by passively and do nothing.

Most Americans have the means to stop world hunger? That seems like a wild, reckless claim especially when one considers that fully a third of all Americans barely have enough to eat themselves.

Since you seem to believe that America has the power to end world hunger but doesn't, how does this jive with the view that we are a nation led by the Christian god? Is this a false view? Are some Muslims correct when they call us the Great Satan? Are you plotting even now to overthrow our godless government?  

Only if every person on earth can honestly say that they are doing everything in their power to eliminate starvation and it still is a problem do we have a legitimate reason to put it on God. Not before.

Why? Can you justify that claim?

Does God have a "will" or does he not? If he does, then will that "will" be done despite human effort to the contrary or can human intervention change the will of God? Is God's will, assuming that you believe he has one, firm, purposeful, and resolute or is it contingent and open to change?

This also goes back to my (unanswered) question. Unless we have evil to contrast with, good lacks meaning. So, how much suffering is acceptable?

I have no idea -- which is why I've never said the world should contain only X amount of evil, no more, no less.

This goes back to my own (unanswered) question: Is all evil necessary in order to achieve God's purpose?

If it is, then you've just justified evil. Every evil committed on earth, in this case, is actually a good thing because it is a necessary part of God's plan.

If it isn't necessary to achieve God's purpose, then why does God allow it since he has the power to prevent it?

Well, it's not as good as my first one that got lost in cyberspace, but it'll do.

I know you've suffered, Liz. What's more, I know the chances are excellent that you have more suffering to look forward to in your future. I know this not because of your personal experience. I know this because you are human. If it makes you feel any better (and I know that it won't) know that millions if not billions have suffered as much as or more than you have. Ironically, your unjustified suffering is probably why you invented your God/protector/avenger in the first place.

Except for your last sentence, I agree with you completely.  It isn

Quote from: Maj73

I believe God does take evil and twists it for good.

So how does God "twist" the evil inherent in small children starving to death in the Sudan into something that justifies the starving to death of those small children?

I don't know if any of you have small children but if you do what in your view will justify their being killed slowly and painfully while you watch?

Why do you believe that making something good come out of an evil situation means the evil is justified?  I never said, hinted, nor believed such a thing.

I don't necessarily believe that the good that could come out of a situation is always realized.  I do believe that evil does not have the power to repress good.

I do have three small children.  One is only 5 months old.  I have a very small glimpse of what you are talking about - just a glimpse.  In his first week of life, his doctor's office group contacted us and told us that the initial tests showed that our son had a serious carnitine deficiency (basically an incurable disorder due to mutation).  If he started to vomit markedly (he did vomit several times his first week prior to the call, but not continually ... none of my others ever vomited except when ill) we were to take him to the hospital to start emergency treatment with the missing enzyme.  Prognosis: bad... the injections would not be a cure, but a treatment... trauma, burns, or illness that would not kill healthy people would kill our boy... living to adulthood would be iffy.  It took a full week to get the detailed results of additional testing.  The first day of waiting after we were told I cried all day.  The second day was marginally better.  It was like having a death sentence written over my child.  And, yes, I prayed.  So did my husband, so did our parents.  Did he have the deficiency and receive special healing in response to our request?  I don't know.  Maybe, maybe not.  The detailed tests came back negative for any abnormalities that the first test showed.  I get, at this time anyhow, to keep and raise this boy.  I'm very grateful.  

Now, you may think "The test gives a false positive and she thinks she has proof of the supernatural."  Actually, no... I think that God may have enacted the supernatural and that I will never know the truth of it.  A woman in our church (who I know personally) had serious health issues.  She had a bad liver (from childhood on).  She received a liver transplant several years back from a live donor (one of her sons).  Transplant = success.  Whoo - hoo!  She went in for some tests and the found cancerous material (tumors? cells? not sure what the proper term is) in her colon, I think.  The doctor scheduled her for another visit to do preliminary work for setting up a treatment schedule and to get a better idea of just how bad it was.  Anyways, she brought it to the church for prayer.  Many people of our church who heard of it petitioned God for her healing (not talking slap you on the head sort of thing bammm you're healed now bring on the next sucker, but numerous people privately and faithfully petitioning God).  When they went in again the growths were 100% gone.  There the first time when they did the biopsy cancerous growths present, absolutely 100% missing the next time.  The doctor was flabergasted.  He's never seen anything like it.  Cancer just does not disappear.  Hers did, after asking God if He would remove it.  The doctor couldn't even find any precancerous growth.  Nothing.  All gone.  GONE.  Now, you can tell me you don't believe it.  I understand.  You didn't see it yourself and have no real way to verify what I'm telling you.  I can only tell you that while I am sometimes innocently wrong, I don't lie (which is why I said I think after colon).  So... I don't rule out that He changed things in my son on our behalf.  

"what in your view will justify their being killed slowly and painfully while you watch?"

I suppose this isn't the time to bring up how starving to death (Terry) is supposed to be a euphoric experience...

You're back to calling it justified again... you know I make a distinction.

If I had had to watch my son die, I would not have abandoned God.  I know, beyond doubt, that He would have given us the strength needed to endure his slow death.  He wouldn't have died because God struck him down or because God wanted suffering, he would have died because ever since the fall our genetic code has been in the slow, but accumulating process of deteriorating.  

Go back to the beginning.  Why does suffering exist?  Basically, suffering exists because of us.  God made us for certain purposes, I probably couldn't identify the fullness of the purposes of the original creation.  Sin is missing the mark, missing the target.  We as a race and as individuals have all missed the mark.  When we do, we create suffering.  Not only this, but creation itself was bound together with man in death at the fall.  So, there will be eruptions, earthquakes, floods, etc.  It will continue this way until God interferes by ending the world and renewing it in perfection.  

God will continue to mercifully mitigate the suffering we have collectively created for ourselves, both through interference and by bringing out good.