Topic: An Atheist's Church (Read 2872 times)

Anthony Horvath · « **on:** October 06, 2005, 09:01:15 AM »

I'd like to start a 'church' for atheists, skeptics, doubters, and seekers, and of course, Christians are welcome, too. I would want to remain true to my own convictions, so what follows assumes that I won't compromise. What sort of gathering would you atheists and skeptic like folk enjoy?

Here is sort of the format that I was looking at... Just an idea.

Introduction- a few words of welcome for everyone.

Song- a GOOD QUALITY Christian song. Not a hymn. Something singable. Could also be a secular song, Creed has some good ones, but the idea is something singable.

A reading from some part of the Bible.

5-10 minute message that I give derived from that reading.

10-30 minutes of Q+A with guests being able to pontificate a little on their own.

Some sort of appropriate transition

Another song

Dismissal

Everybody sits down and has a meal together, for discussion, debate, and friendly talk. Afterwards, people can play pool, or darts, maybe basketball, others can sit around (and if of age) have a beer or two, or maybe even a shot of whiskey. (I'm Lutheran.

)

That's one idea I had for a format that perhaps even a non-Christian could enjoy doing. Any thoughts? Other suggestions?

TheAtheistHeratic · « **Reply #1 on:** October 06, 2005, 02:53:50 PM »

Introduction- a few words of welcome for everyone.

Song- a song. Not a hymn. Something singable. Could also be a secular song, Creed has some good ones, but the idea is something singable.

A reading from some logical books.

5-10 minute message that I give derived from that reading.

10-30 minutes of Q+A with guests being able to pontificate a little on their own.

Some sort of appropriate transition

Another song

Dismissal

dark territory · « **Reply #2 on:** October 06, 2005, 03:44:08 PM »

Meet outside gathered around a tree near a stream, followed by a chant, all that will be is all that there is. Followed by a song concerning nature, and power of men.

Maybe say a prayer to the unknown.

Then close with whatever, a song or something hehe. I don't know, I'm kidding I would'nt be there. I have enough trouble getting up on sundays.

p.s. Luthern church is a great church! I attended a Luthern church a few times. My only trouble with it was, man "I'm to sleepy to remember how walk through the service." Be sure your church offers an afternoon or night service.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #3 on:** October 06, 2005, 08:56:58 PM »

Seriously....i think snt.johnny is on to something real. Possibly the way the early church began. Geegee will now go into deeeeeep thought...and come back later. :D

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #4 on:** October 06, 2005, 09:32:32 PM »

'logic books'

lol. The Lord knows some of the flock would need it.

As nice as that sounds, one of my conditions was that I could pull this off without compromising my own faith. In otherwords, I want built into this an opportunity to lay out the Gospel each meeting. I'm certainly not opposed to going over some logic books, but I doubt anyone would be interested in them at all as standard fare. I think that I can speak a compelling word or two that people still may not agree with, but would find interesting to listen to.

And as long as I give them an opportunity to respond, either with questions, or their own short diatribe, (or both), I think they'd be game.

I meet so many former Christians that left their Christianity for crappy reasons. I think they just need an opportunity to ask hard questions and hear hard answers. They don't even need to agree. If they leave Christianity, at least let it be for quality reasons. But I think non-Christians would appreciate that opportunity just as much.

DoofaceMcGee · « **Reply #5 on:** October 07, 2005, 06:33:04 AM »

A "church" for atheists would have a very different format in my perfect world. The format you described is just regular Christian church..

My church would be a meeting place for Atheists to discuss their views and why. The "preacher" would be a highly educated skeptic (someone like Randi). People would be educated on the latest findings in evolution, the most recent biblical myth to be debunked, reasons that there are no supernatural beings, etc.

Basically, I would like a propaganda machine for MY beliefs (just like the 14 churches i passed on the way to work today).

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #6 on:** October 07, 2005, 06:53:28 AM »

See, Dooface, I think you are probably a perfect case in point. It sounds to me like you never heard the real meat of CHristian evidence and philosophy. You probably asked the right questions, but the people you asked didn't have decent answers. Or, worse, they didn't think it was important, or worse yet, they thought it was wrong to ask questions. Ragnar has expressed his view that his church taught him just that, and yet it is completely out of line with the overall history of the Christian church, inquisition be d--ned.

I think you should look a little closer at my format. Not that I'm married to it, but there is about 20-30 minutes for dialogue and exchange of viewpoints. I think that as I'm the one hosting the event, renting the facility and perhaps buying the food, I should have the right to insist that I get at least some shot at putting my view out there.

Your format is obviously something that exists in the form of skeptic societies already, but it lacks the same thing that those churches you mentioned lack- discussion and debate from all sides. Your format would be as much 'indoctrination' as those churches you refer to. Of course, you think that it would be ok, because you're right, but then, that's what the churches think too.

In my concept, regardless of the format finally put together, indoctrination is the last thing that will happen. Propoganda is the last thing that will happen.

Ragnar · « **Reply #7 on:** October 07, 2005, 11:24:45 AM »

I answered yes to the poll, because I would probably attend once or twice out of curiosity, maybe more if there were free food and drink $\:D/$ but I wouldn't take it very seriously. I'm pretty secure in my beliefs. I've developed them over a period of many years, and while I have an open mind, theists just don't have the necessary proof to make me believe in any gods. Unless you could show me some miracles or something, I would get tired of the debates very quickly. Especially if the majority of your "congregation" ended up being Christians, which is what I think would happen. Most atheists I've encountered were raised with some kind of religion. We've heard all the arguments before, and we have very good reasons for rejecting them, which I won't get into here because we are already discussing them elsewhere. So butting our heads against what is, to us, irrational Christians every week would probably not be an atheist's idea of a good time. Doing it on the internet is one thing, but to actually take time out to go somewhere is an entirely different matter.

To clarify the personal reference made to me: I realize I said that I was taught to follow the Bible without question, but this was an oversimplification on my part. It is true that the religious classes I attended every week were more for indoctrination purposes, and of course there is no opportunity for open discussion during the liturgies themselves. But as I got older the priest was available to answer questions and talk if any of the students wanted to.

TheAtheistHeratic · « **Reply #8 on:** October 07, 2005, 02:46:40 PM »

*clap*

DoofaceMcGee · « **Reply #9 on:** October 10, 2005, 11:52:24 AM »

SJ, you seem to think that I am uninformed on the Christian Faith. I have actually just recently moved towards atheism, after being a christian for 25 years. I was raised in a VERY Christian home, and my Father is very well educated. I have had many debates with him recently, and he never even comes close to convincing me. I have also been studying both sides of the debate fo the last few months, and have made a decision in what i believe.

Back to the topic at hand - I still say that a gathering where Christianity is taught is plain old Christian Church! I have been there many many times.. But how many Atheist gatherings have you attended?

If it really was open forum Question / Answer session with Theists and Atheists, i would gladly attend. I cannot ever say 100% that I am one or the other. I lived the first 25 years with my mind closed, I'll not make that mistake again.

Ragnar · « **Reply #10 on:** October 10, 2005, 12:24:45 PM »

Just some off-the-cuff ideas for artists that I think would work well in this situation:

Spiritual/neutral stuff:

Bob Marley
Santana
Led Zeppelin
Bob Dylan
Cat Stevens
Enya
Eric Clapton
old blues stuff like Robert Johnson, Son House, Blind Willy Johnson...
Leonard Cohen
Grateful Dead
George Harrison
Ravi Shankar
Poe
Dido
Jimmy Hendrix
Arrested Development
The Roots
Beastie Boys (some songs are decidedly Buddhist in nature)

Probably more for atheists:

Black Sabbath (although if you listen to the lyrics of "War Pigs" it is definitely pro-God)
Metallica
AC/DC
Depeche Mode
Marilyn Manson

Would you have a DJ? That would be neat if you did.

DoofaceMcGee · « **Reply #11 on:** October 10, 2005, 12:28:04 PM »

Nice.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #12 on:** October 10, 2005, 12:46:33 PM »

I'm open to format suggestions if the format I laid out did not seem appealing. But as I said, since I'm the one going to put his money out there, I think I have the right to present my view. I understand that if I do that in a way too much like 'regular church' then it won't appeal to people at all, and if I do it different enough but still overwhelmingly, that will turn people off, as well.

Its a tricky bind. Obviously I'm only doing it because I think my position is RIGHT and I believe that there is a lot on the line. It seems to me that there is very little face to face discourse on these subjects, and that is what I have in mind as much as anything.

I don't like anything down the 'unitarian' route because all that is is a bunch of panzies too embarrased to take a position and stand on it in the name of 'love' (but don't ask them to define it). I think a place where metal can clash against metal and people disagree and yet get along- and those disagreements are known, not hidden- is the place for reality to shine.

I want it to be enjoyable, thought provoking, etc.

Ragnar · « **Reply #13 on:** October 10, 2005, 01:03:04 PM »

Quote from: dark territory

Meet outside gathered around a tree near a stream, followed by a chant, all that will be is all that there is. Followed by a song concerning nature, and power of men.

Forgot about this. When I saw this post it reminded me of something I just read. One time the Buddha was about to give a sermon, and right as he opened his mouth to speak a bird started singing. When it stopped, he said, "The sermon has been delivered," and that was it.

I thought that was really neat

Heretic · « **Reply #14 on:** October 11, 2005, 08:27:30 AM »

I got dibs on being the BBQ meat slinger!! If or when this happens I want to be the BBQ Chef please.

Chicken, sausages, pork steaks, Beef......Oh yeah!

TheAtheistHeratic · « **Reply #15 on:** October 12, 2005, 03:07:40 PM »

Nice to notice this thread has changed from sntjohnnys idea of a try to convert to christianity church to a discussion about what an atheist gathering would be like.

The Sasquatch · « **Reply #16 on:** October 17, 2005, 11:20:31 PM »

Sj:

I think its a great idea with one major exception: DO. NOT. PLAY. CREED. Seriously. Anything else is fine. Just don't play Creed.

Please.

DoofaceMcGee · « **Reply #17 on:** October 18, 2005, 08:28:17 AM »

Quote from: The Sasquatch

Sj:

I think its a great idea with one major exception: DO. NOT. PLAY. CREED. Seriously. Anything else is fine. Just don't play Creed.

Please.

I second that.. Creed is just wrong. If you ever want to get someone to leave Christianity, just let them know Scott Stapp.

TheAtheistHeratic · « **Reply #18 on:** October 18, 2005, 02:59:37 PM »

Creed one of Christianity's biggest flaws.

SoughtFound&Alive · « **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2005, 12:47:01 AM »

Quote from: TheAtheistHeratic

Creed one of Christianity's biggest flaws.

I'm trying hard to understand how Creed was one of Christianity's biggest flaws when it was never a Christian band to begin with. Scott Stapp since became a Christian and a Christian artist since Creed split up but that's a different issue entirely.

Author Topic: An Atheist's Church (Read 2872 times)