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Elisha

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Argument for the existence of God
« on: April 03, 2006, 08:02:08 PM »
I believe that Copernicus has given an argument for the existence of God.  Maybe not the God that we Christians believe in, but a God nonetheless.  If he doesn't mind me twisting his quote to suit my point:

"I am starting with the assumption that the existence of any god is a logical possibility, just as the existence of Santa Claus, elves, leprechauns, Zeus, Marduk, Vulcan, Mercury, Odin, Thor, Quetzalcoatl, Vishnu, Ahura Mazda, Mormoni, etc., are all logical possibilities. In this forum, I defend the position of "theism"--the opinion that gods exist. I define gods as immaterial "spirit beings" that can think in the same sense that humans can and that can affect the lives of humans by causing events in the material world. Since there are many reasons to believe that gods exist, my defense of theism necessarily addresses a wide range of issues, one of which is that gods can make themselves known to humans. This is a fundamental belief of all theistic religions that I know of. It is logically possible that gods exist that do make themselves know to humans. Logical possibilities are endless. The question is what it is plausible to believe.

If gods can make their existence evident, then it is reasonable to ask why we find clear evidence of their existence."

I've already created a parody thread pointing out a flaw in the atheist argument, in which I showed how I can use their reasoning to prove the existence of God.  In this thread, I will further use the argument to prove it is possible that a God who is silent exists.  

So, according to Copernicus' own reasoning:

1.  It is logically possible that a silent God exists
2.  This statement is further verified in that people like Copernicus claim God is silent (and so I use their own argument in defense of this).
3.  This makes it reasonable to believe in a silent God.
4.  Therefore, it is rationally acceptable that a silent God exists.

-Elisha
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Heretic

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Argument for the existence of God
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2006, 02:09:41 AM »
Senseless Elisha writes;

1. It is logically possible that a silent God exists
2. This statement is further verified in that people like Copernicus claim God is silent (and so I use their own argument in defense of this).
3. This makes it reasonable to believe in a silent God.
4. Therefore, it is rationally acceptable that a silent God exists.


This is a mis-representation of Cops posts as he did not state "God is silent" but (paraphrased)  IF a God exists, he/she/it is silent.  There still remains no reasonable or rational reason to believe in the existance of any God(s).  I would say "nice try" if it indeed was, but the attempt was not nice or even a good attempt at cleverness.

To say "IF" something exists is in no way the same as stating it is reasonable to believe in the existance of something.
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I am perfectly happy to say that gods are a logical possibility. There is just no reasonable evidence to license such a belief. --Copernicus

Ragnar

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Argument for the existence of God
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2006, 09:23:26 AM »
I'll bite. It is perfectly reasonable to think it possible that a silent god exists. The question then becomes how would this have any effect on your life whatsoever? If the god has always been silent than there's no way to know what he wants, and he should therefore be ignored. Further, if you grant that he is silent, then it follows that all the people who have written about gods are writing about fictional beings, and should definitely be ignored.

Let me pose you another question. Do you think someone who follows the whim of a being that most of the rest of humanity think is imaginary is insane?
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Elisha

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Argument for the existence of God
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2006, 01:00:39 PM »
Heretic takes aim at my parody argument, but his shot is obviously far-off.  I understand "to say 'IF' something exists is in no way the same as stating it is reasonable to believe in the existence of something".  I never typed that Copernicus said it was reasonable to believe in a silent God.  All I'm doing here is using Copernicus' own argument regarding God being silent in order to further verify my argument in the existence of a silent God.  Copernicus is defending my main premise in a separate thread.  Whatever he types over there in regards to God being silent, I can use over here.

I accept all of Ragnar's points he's made and, seeing that I really don't care about the existence of a silent God, I don't care about his personality flaws, whether or not he is to be ignored, etc.  All that matters to me is using Cop's own reasoning to prove that a silent God exists to further a point of mine: Cop's argument doesn't further atheism any more than it furthers the existence of God(s).

While I appreciate it that my parody argument has finally gotten some attention, it remains unscathed.  Later, guys,

-Elisha
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"Is it rational to believe in a bad God? Rational?  No. Scary?  Yes." (C.S. Lewis)

Ragnar

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Argument for the existence of God
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2006, 03:05:58 PM »
Is he speaking English?
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[batman

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."  
- Ayn Rand

"Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself makes you fearless."
- Lao Tzu

"Your side hates our side because you think we think you're stupid. Our side hates your side because we think you're stupid."
- Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip

TheAtheistHeratic

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Argument for the existence of God
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2006, 03:39:28 PM »
I still think he (elisha) is a girl.  Change your username like gee.
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Deep Thought

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Argument for the existence of God
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2006, 03:56:31 PM »
Quote from: TheAtheistHeratic
I still think he (elisha) is a girl.  Change your username like gee.


Elisha was a male prophet from the Bible, the successor of Elijah. You're just thinking of the modern name "Elisha."
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Elisha

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Argument for the existence of God
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2006, 06:39:49 PM »
I think TheAtheistHeratic has a crush on me or something.  I won't turn into a girl no matter how bad you want to think I'm one.
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Copernicus

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Re: Argument for the existence of God
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2006, 08:10:56 PM »
Quote from: Elisha
I've already created a parody thread pointing out a flaw in the atheist argument, in which I showed how I can use their reasoning to prove the existence of God.  In this thread, I will further use the argument to prove it is possible that a God who is silent exists.


Since you did not paraphrase my argument accurately, I do not consider it a "parody".  I would rather call it a "caricature".  :-)

Quote
So, according to Copernicus' own reasoning:

1.  It is logically possible that a silent God exists
2.  This statement is further verified in that people like Copernicus claim God is silent (and so I use their own argument in defense of this).
3.  This makes it reasonable to believe in a silent God.
4.  Therefore, it is rationally acceptable that a silent God exists.


Steps 2 and 3 do not reflect anything that I posted.  If you think that they do, you need to do a better job of supporting your claim.  I do not claim that "God is silent".  I claim that nonexistent beings are silent.  It is a logical possibility that a silent God exists, but I explicitly pointed out that there are many unlikely beings whose existence is a logical possibility.  You quoted my statement to this effect, yet you seem not to have read your own quote.  In fact, everything that I have said has been a denial of #3.  It is not reasonable to believe that a silent God exists.  Where did you get that from?
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Elisha

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Argument for the existence of God
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2006, 11:40:33 PM »
Cop, when I said I was using your own reasoning, I meant I am going to use your arguments in defense of a silent God existing in order to prove that your entire argument helps theism just as much (if not more) than atheism.

You typed that my step 2 doesn't reflect anything that you posted, but step 2 deals with God  being silent (something you defended in the other thread).  My claim is supported all throughout the other thread and the title of the other thread.  It doesn't matter whether or not you aimed to prove "nonexistent beings are silent".  I can still use your arguments to silence in order to verify my own conclusion.

I never said all of the steps were your own reasoning.  I thought one can tell that I was using your reasoning in the first two steps, then going towards opposite conclusions in 3 and 4.

-Elisha
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Elisha

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Argument for the existence of God
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2006, 02:40:38 PM »
Bump.

I typed,

"Cop, when I said I was using your own reasoning, I meant I am going to use your arguments in defense of a silent God existing in order to prove that your entire argument helps theism just as much (if not more) than atheism."

Here's a better formulation of my parody argument:

GOD IS SILENT:

1.  My God never talks to me or shows me things.
2.  It is my opinion that this entails my God as a silent God.
3.  Therefore, a silent God exists.

Logic is phun!

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"Is it rational to believe in a bad God? Rational?  No. Scary?  Yes." (C.S. Lewis)
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