Topic: Did the Christian Church hasten your unbelief? (Read 8238 times)

Anthony Horvath · « **on:** January 29, 2006, 10:52:40 AM »

A recent conversation has made me interested in this subject for my own forum. Atheists and non-believers tend to hang out in the atheism forum, so I'd like to ask for mini-testimonies. I understand that you might have eventually developed much more substantial grounds for rejecting Christianity, but many of you started out in the church, and I'm wondering if there was anything in your early (or late) church experiences which specifically fueled your unbelief. Even if that means only prompting you to look elsewhere, and found the refutation.

So- is there any link at all to any perception you have of the church and your current intellectual and a-spirtual life?

I won't argue with you. I'm just interested.

If you need me to add an option added, please tell me and I will.

Ragnar · « **Reply #1 on:** February 01, 2006, 09:55:39 AM »

First off, I consider myself atheist, but not a-spiritual.

I answered no, because although I wasn't particularly fond of the church, I would have rejected Christianity even if I loved the church. That's what it means to be objective. You go where the evidence leads you, whether your personal feelings coincide with that or not.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #2 on:** February 01, 2006, 10:48:47 AM »

You don't consider yourself a-spiritual? So you think you have a spirit?

Ragnar · « **Reply #3 on:** February 01, 2006, 01:46:20 PM »

Quote from: sntjohnny

You don't consider yourself a-spiritual? So you think you have a spirit?

From the stomping grounds of those whom you believe don't think freely:

http://www.cfi-forums.org/viewtopic.php?t=303&highlight=spiritual

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #4 on:** February 01, 2006, 03:02:45 PM »

So, you DO acknowledge having a soul, then.

Copernicus · « **Reply #5 on:** February 01, 2006, 05:34:13 PM »

Sntjohnny, it would be hard to say that any of us became atheists independently of the influence of religion. I think that we are all puzzled by the apparent inconsistencies and contradictions that our personal religious experiences caused for us, but I don't think that atheists are unique in that respect. I think that believers have plenty of doubts. At some point, one has to decide how to cope with them. Atheists decide that lack of faith is the best way to remove the antinomies. Theists find other ways to resolve the problems.

It is not necessary to give up beliefs in spirits in order to reject belief in gods. It is probably true that most humans believe in immaterial thinking beings. I do not, but I came to that belief well after I had ceased to believe in God.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #6 on:** February 01, 2006, 05:41:37 PM »

"It is not necessary to give up beliefs in spirits in order to reject belief in gods."

Sure. That's what the New Age is all about. But you probably didn't notice Ragnar questioning the existence of souls in another thread.

Copernicus · « **Reply #7 on:** February 01, 2006, 07:48:45 PM »

Quote from: sntjohnny

Sure. That's what the New Age is all about. But you probably didn't notice Ragnar questioning the existence of souls in another thread.

I expect Ragnar to do his duty as a thinking human being. I expect no less of you.

JustLiz · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2006, 12:36:44 AM »

Hi. I'm new to this website, but I thought I'd answer your question. The church most definitely influenced me. I was raised atheist, became born-again at age 27. I'm now 36 and a recent atheist. I went to two different churches during my 9 years as a Christian. The first was an independant Bible church, the second an independant Pentecostal. I noticed a few things. In my first church, I was treated like pond-scum because I was new and a little too honest about my problems. It took me 9 years to learn that the rule of church is always smile and talk about how good God is. Don't ever admit that you are hurting or have a need because you will get squashed and gossiped about for it and banned from any ministries.

The second church taught that a person can lose their salvation. By the time I left there, I was a basket case paranoid that I'd screw up and get in a car accident before I could repent. I took a few months off to reevaluate. I spent countless hours studying and reading quite a few different perspectives online. I realized that each person has there own take on it - the Holy Spirit doesn't teach truth as it claims. I left faith kicking and screaming. I still love the idea of Jesus, but the reality and the idea are too far apart to reconcile. Just tonight, my best friend of 9 years told me she regretted ever being friends with me because I've become an atheist. There's some of that "Fruit of the Spirit" in action. It just reinforced to me why I am now an atheist.

Stathei · « **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2006, 01:36:36 AM »

I'M BAAAAAACKKKK

!!!

I take issue with the "aspiritual" part of your intro, SJ. The human "spirit" doesn't need a deity, or spirits, to exist. Looking at my children gives me just as warm a glow as the one you get when you look at yours, and I am just as awed by the stars as you are (perhaps more, because I don't think I'm "special" like you do and I feel terribly insignificant). Just because we know the true nature of feelings doesn't mean we don't feel.

As for the original question, the only thing about my Christian upbringing that influenced me to become an Atheist was that is was so obviously ridiculous and untrue. Christianity didn't drive me to Atheism, truth, honesty and reality did.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #10 on:** February 03, 2006, 07:29:58 AM »

Christiannomore- welcome. Glad to have you, sorry to hear about your experiences. Really, honestly, truly am.

I said I wasn't going to argue in this thread, but Stathei has called me out. Stathei- why did you put 'spirit' in quotes like that? Do you think you have a spirit or not? Ragnar, you? While we're in the same area, what about a soul. Think we got one of those?

To me it looks like another example of wanting it both ways- your introspection tells you that there is more to you than meets the eye but you wish to deny the Christian (or religious person) the opportunity to make something of that fact.

Stathei · « **Reply #11 on:** February 03, 2006, 10:35:11 AM »

Sorry SJ, I know you hate an argument

.

I put "spirit" in quotes because it implies, well, spirits! There are no spirits, but I am using your terminology since I mean the same thing, but from a different origin.

Just because we accept that our emotions are nothing more than electrical impulses and chemical reactions doesn't mean that we feel nothing. Just because we accept that our families are a group of apes doesn't mean that we don't love them with all our hearts. Just because we accept that our thoughts, motives and actions are more concerned with self and species preservation that with your bizzarre God does not mean we are robots. Atheist are called "Humanist" for a reason.

My introspection tells you nothing - apart from the fact that I am occasionally introspective

. In our desperate search for meaning, Man invented God and then used our desperate search for meaning as evidence that our invention is real. And you say Atheists want it both ways? Please...

Ragnar · « **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2006, 10:38:28 AM »

In that thread on the other board, Advocatus said:

I don't know what Cherokee has in mind, but Carl Sagan used to like the word "spiritual". The word originally meant "breath", and by extension it still refers to "whatever keeps you alive". In that sense, "spirit" is the essence of being Human, our capacity for thinking in abstract ways, our capacity for seeing beauty in the most unlikely places, for getting excited about things, for pondering questions that don't have answers, for being passionate, for caring. All that is "spirituality", in my opinion, even if it doesn't come from a supernatural source.

I couldn't put it any better than that. I don't believe we have a "soul" or a supernatural "spirit," but that has nothing to do with feeling wonder or being struck by beauty or anything else that distinguishes humans (and possibly chimps, dolphins, and others) from other animals.

In the sense of meaning "that which is life-affirming" (which, by the way, is also a central tenet of objectivism - doing that which is life-affirming), the feeling of having spirituality is not supernatural.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #13 on:** February 03, 2006, 11:37:59 AM »

Well, the word 'spirit' is a term that historically carries within its meaning the supernatural. You guys are not meaning the same thing but with different origins. You are changing the meaning of the term altogether. Instead of putting it in quotes, you would do better to choose a new word. Invent it if you like.

For one thing, you shouldn't be arguing that there is no spirit or a soul and then turn around and say that there is. Just finding a way to make yourself comfortable with the idea while eliminating the parts with ramifications you are not comfortable isn't exactly an honest approach.

At anyrate, I used the word in its traditional sense which has supernatural denotations and connotations, and you both certainly knew that. After all, Stathei said it was 'my terminology' so he must have known what I meant. Indeed you both knew what I meant, and you do fit what I meant.

Stathei · « **Reply #14 on:** February 03, 2006, 12:02:22 PM »

Quote

Just finding a way to make yourself comfortable with the idea while eliminating the parts with ramifications you are not comfortable isn't exactly an honest approach.

That is CLASSIC Christian hypocrisy! Your whole religion depends on exactly that!!

To stay on topic, the only thing about religion that makes us Atheists is it's falsehood.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #15 on:** February 03, 2006, 12:58:29 PM »

"That is CLASSIC Christian hypocrisy! Your whole religion depends on exactly that!!"

That is only your color commentary. I am not the one changing the definitions of commonly used words to escape the consequences. Don't tell me you don't have a spirit when in fact you have a spirit but by spirit you don't mean spirit you mean spirit the way you mean spirit and not the way spirit has been understood throughout time and even is understood today.

I'm not going to debate the ramification stuff. If you think you are more rational, logical, coherent, and honest by taking words and changing their meanings, then that is your problem.

Stathei · « **Reply #16 on:** February 03, 2006, 01:41:22 PM »

Quote

That is only your color commentary.

...and that is you avoiding the issue.

According to dictionary.com, one of the many definitions of "spirit" is: "The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings". That is what I mean by "spirit". You probably mean "The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death". Same word, different meanings. I rest my case.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #17 on:** February 03, 2006, 02:14:36 PM »

LOL.

This is interesting.

G.

Ragnar · « **Reply #18 on:** February 03, 2006, 02:42:44 PM »

I never said I thought I had a spirit (noun), I said I was spiritual (adjective). It means I am concerned with that which is life-affirming.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #19 on:** February 03, 2006, 08:36:27 PM »

That sound is the sound of me being .... unargumentative.

Back on topic.

Author Topic: Did the Christian Church hasten your unbelief? (Read 8238 times)

Stathei

Stathei

Stathei

Stathei