Topic: Existing subjective moral values vs. objective/absolute (Read 5205 times)

MBROWN · « **on:** September 30, 2004, 01:11:09 PM »

Folks

Let's compare the differences between these moral values, shall we?

We can create two lists, one with existing secular/subjective moral values and another with, let's start with, Christian moral values. I'll start and also include a survey to make a point.

Subjective/secular:
Don't hurt people

Matthew

cimics · « **Reply #1 on:** September 30, 2004, 03:19:32 PM »

"Don't hurt people" is not subjective

MBROWN · « **Reply #2 on:** September 30, 2004, 04:44:06 PM »

Quote from: cimics

"Don't hurt people" is not subjective

I can not deny this, but I'm trying to appease the theist's on this forum so they will participate. I figure they consider theirs objective and/or absolute. There are some moral values that might be considered subjective to the secular person, but let's run with this to see if we can develop two lists so we can compare them and then measure their effectiveness.

Matthew

Elisha · « **Reply #3 on:** September 30, 2004, 05:01:32 PM »

*waits in ambush*

MBROWN · « **Reply #4 on:** September 30, 2004, 06:49:01 PM »

Quote from: Elisha

*waits in ambush*

LOL

The Sasquatch · « **Reply #5 on:** September 30, 2004, 06:52:31 PM »

8) Confused but still cool!

MBROWN · « **Reply #6 on:** October 09, 2004, 10:22:25 PM »

Quote from: Elisha

*waits in ambush*

Still waiting. Havn't seen the Christian or theist moral values list as of yet, not even one. I'm beginning to think there aren't any.

Matthew

The Sasquatch · « **Reply #7 on:** October 10, 2004, 10:29:04 AM »

I'm beginning to think there aren't any secular ones that are different from theistic ones (at least on the general level). I haven't seen one of those yet, either.

FUSSCCJ · « **Reply #8 on:** October 10, 2004, 12:19:35 PM »

Everybody is talking about seeing values...what do values look like? What color are they? Are they big or small? What are their identifying features?

Question before I even consider listing a moral value: do you think it is even possible for us to determine as a certainty that something is objective? (NOTE: this is much different from determining something is not objective).

Elisha · « **Reply #9 on:** October 10, 2004, 01:40:19 PM »

Matthew,

Since I'm sure I know what you're aiming for, how about I grant you that the subjective values seculars hold are basically the same of those that Christians hold.

Is that what you're aiming for?

The Sasquatch · « **Reply #10 on:** October 10, 2004, 02:26:00 PM »

Or, here are two...just for fun!

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your strength, with all your soul, with all your heart, and with all your mind"

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Let the flame war begin!

MBROWN · « **Reply #11 on:** October 11, 2004, 12:20:17 AM »

Quote from: FUSSCCJ

Question before I even consider listing a moral value: do you think it is even possible for us to determine as a certainty that something is objective? (NOTE: this is much different from determining something is not objective).

Sure. I can help. Let's remove the layer of abstraction you have added and talk about moral values or moral value sets. I'll start you off with:

Do not hurt anyone!
Do not steal!
Do not cheat!

If you find yourself wondering, it is an abstraction.

Matthew

MBROWN · « **Reply #12 on:** October 11, 2004, 12:20:56 AM »

Quote from: Elisha

Since I'm sure I know what you're aiming for, how about I grant you that the subjective values seculars hold are basically the same of those that Christians hold.

Is that what you're aiming for?

Close enough.

Matthew

MBROWN · « **Reply #13 on:** October 11, 2004, 12:23:18 AM »

Folks

We have established that the secular moral value sets are basically the same. Now let us consider the effectiveness of these different moral values or moral value sets. The issue is how to measure them. I believe the effectiveness of such moral values is a true measurement, but I'd like to hear from the others.

Matthew

MBROWN · « **Reply #14 on:** October 11, 2004, 12:24:13 AM »

Quote from: The Sasquatch

Or, here are two...just for fun!

"You shall love the Lord your God with all your strength, with all your soul, with all your heart, and with all your mind"

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

These are good. I like the second one.

Matthew

The Sasquatch · « **Reply #15 on:** October 11, 2004, 11:06:38 AM »

I think a lot of Christians would say the first should be included. So secular and non-secular moral value sets are different.

MBROWN · « **Reply #16 on:** October 11, 2004, 12:22:57 PM »

Quote from: The Sasquatch

I think a lot of Christians would say the first should be included. So secular and non-secular moral value sets are different.

Oh, yes, it has been added.

I wish to add to the secular list:

Be kind to all.
Do not be disrepectful.

Matthew

The Sasquatch · « **Reply #17 on:** October 11, 2004, 03:23:50 PM »

I think those fall under the second one.

MBROWN · « **Reply #18 on:** October 11, 2004, 03:55:48 PM »

Quote from: The Sasquatch

I think those fall under the second one.

Indeed. I do not. That is why we have two lists, the Christian and the secular. Some are comparable and should be.

Matthew

The Sasquatch · « **Reply #19 on:** October 11, 2004, 04:00:16 PM »

I thought we were still talking about one list. I guess that teaches me not to read without my glasses!

Author Topic: Existing subjective moral values vs. objective/absolute (Read 5205 times)