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Author Topic: How would a world without God look?  (Read 5835 times)

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Copernicus

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How would a world without God look?
« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2006, 06:29:37 PM »

Quote from: sntjohnny
How do feral children fit into your comments, Cop?  You mentioned human communities all having language, but a feral child is not in a community.  At least, that is the case for many such children.  Isn't it to the feral children that you'd turn to to discuss this topic?


Why would the so-called "feral child" phenomenon (a phenomenon that is not well-studied, BTW) contradict anything that I've said?  Human kids who miss the critical-exposure period almost invariably show impaired language acquisition skills.  See, for example, the Critical Period Hypothesis.  Because critical periods are associated with instinctive behavior in animals, they represent data in favor of the innateness hypothesis for language.  Also, please read the Wikipedia link that I put into the last line of my previous post.  That might help you to understand what I am talking about.

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What with all your credentials and all, you should have an opinion on Gopnik, Meltzoff, and Kuhl, 1999?  Physiologically speaking, the synapses involved in language simply die if not exploited.  So... to me that suggests that language development, at the nuerological level, requires exposure to language for language to happen.  No exposure to any language=no language at all.  You are saying that language simply will happen.  The nueroscience seems to suggest otherwise.


Sntjohnny, have you understood nothing at all that I wrote?  First of all, the critical period hypothesis does not mean that no language will happen.  It means that language acquisition will be impaired.  Linguists have been engaged in trying to systematically describe those impairments.   You have stumbled across a single reference in a rather vast literature on the subject, and you have still managed to misunderstand its content almost completely.  Gopnik, Meltzoff, and Kuhl agree with the argument that language is fundamentally instinctive in humans.  They, like other researchers, are engaged in a debate over precisely which aspects of language are nurture and which are nature.  

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I have not read the study myself, but Malson, 1972 talks about feral children who could not SPEAK.  (I of course, must defer to thou as to whether or not being able to speak relates even one iota to 'language').


I suspected that you had not read the study, since the authors agree with the rather general point I've been making here.  Actually, there are two types of linguistic competence at issue here--speaking and understanding.  The problem with Malson's work was that he reported on incidents that were not investigated by people who were knowledgable about linguistics.  Hence, the generalizations about linguistic ability were suggestive, but not necessarily reliable.    

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In a nutshell, I don't think you are taking into proper account the socializiation that is required in order for language to develop.  Humans may be born ready to have their brain structured in a way that integrates language, but that is different then actually being integrated.


And that is why I pointed out that I had special expertise in this area--so that you wouldn't jump to that hasty conclusion.  Nevertheless, I am not surprised that you have jumped to another hasty conclusion without knowing what you were talking about.  ;-)
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Anthony Horvath

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How would a world without God look?
« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2006, 07:08:31 PM »

"Why would the so-called "feral child" phenomenon (a phenomenon that is not well-studied, BTW) contradict anything that I've said?"

See below:

"Human kids who miss the critical-exposure period almost invariably show impaired language acquisition skills."

But the studies I'm aware of are that there are cases where it is not a matter of impairement, but complete absence.  That is not consistent with your argument.

I'm not sure what the point of pointing out that it is not well-studied is.  We should be glad for that!  And yet, if we were trying to control for variables, the question of whether or not language is an instinct or part of socialization (or a combination of the two), if we can eliminate socialization as a possibility... and the result is NO language abilities, that would suggest to me (and I admit, I'm only an idiot ;)  ) that you cannot say that this is a biological trait that everyone is born with.

"That might help you to understand what I am talking about."

My wife is a special ed teacher and I read her text books, plus I've taken a grad course on the subject.  I wouldn't say that I'm right with ya, cuz that was a few years back, but I confess I found the whole subject matter easy to master.  I was offended I had to take the class.  I'm sure it will come back to me if I care to let it.

"Sntjohnny, have you understood nothing at all that I wrote?"

Actually, I confess I've read very little of it.  :)   I have so many irons to put in the fire.

"First of all, the critical period hypothesis does not mean that no language will happen. It means that language acquisition will be impaired."

Right, but if during 'this period' language acquisition simply DOES NOT HAPPEN, that contradicts your statement earlier:

"Children will acquire language whether others attempt to teach it or not."

Perhaps you do not stand by this statement anymore?

I cited Gopnik, Meltzoff, and Kuhl's study that showed that the BRAIN.  PHYSICALLY.  FRIES.  THE SYNAPSES.  IF.  THEY.  ARE.  NOT.  USED.  I believe in that study language skills are specifically cited.  As I understand it, I am only citing, really, the Hebbian Process.  Use it or lose it.

"You have stumbled across a single reference in a rather vast literature on the subject,"

Actually, I'm just reaching into the vast reserves of knowledge.  I didn't go looking for this, and so far, you have failed to grapple with the point that I was making on it.

Of course, let's not forget that you used to teach this at the graduate level.  I do not have the original study (I might, I just don't know where).  Why don't you post it for us to peruse.  Ah well, I saw a smiley at the end of your post, so let me skim ahead....

"And that is why I pointed out that I had special expertise in this area--so that you wouldn't jump to that hasty conclusion."

That was Ragnar, as I understand it.

"Nevertheless, I am not surprised that you have jumped to another hasty conclusion without knowing what you were talking about."

But you've not addressed my point, which is that there is a physiological effect where if synapses are not used in the Hebbian process, they are simply pruned away.  In theory, given modern views on neuroplasticity, they might be 're-grown,' but only by exposure to the stimulus.  Thus, if the child is later exposed to language, the brain may be able to fix things.

But your position is:  "Children will acquire language whether others attempt to teach it or not"

If they are never taught it, how on earth can the brain re-acquire the physical composition to be able to use language?

Didn't Hubel and Wiesel win the Nobel prize by showing that kittens deprived of visual input during a 'critical period' would in fact be blind forever?  A perfectly healthy eye, but deprived of the sensory input, that was the end.

How is this true for cats regarding sight but not for humans regarding language?

Oh, inform us oh great master...  ;)

--->  sntjohnny  [bowtosntjohnny    [wrestlerjima  <----Cop
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