Topic: ID Theory Refutes Notion That Christian God Designed Life (Read 23046 times)

Cogito · « **on:** May 22, 2006, 12:28:09 AM »

p1: ID theory says that life appears to be designed.

p2: No particular thing in the universe can 'appear' to be designed by a designer unless some particular thing in the universe appears not to be designed by that designer.

p3: If God designed all things in the universe, then no particular thing in the universe can 'appear' to be designed by God.

conclusion: The design that ID theory believes that it has found in life is not and cannot be the slightest evidence for the proposition that God designed life but instead can be evidence only for the proposition that life was designed by a designer which did not design everything else in the universe as well as life.

Comments?

Deep Thought · « **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2006, 03:53:16 AM »

Well, that was dangerously close to mirroring one of Elisha's parodies, which makes me wonder whether or not Cog's account has been hacked (*casts a suspicious glance in Elisha's direction*), but I got your point:

As everything in the universe "appears designed," and there is nothing that cannot be said to "not appear designed," it is impossible to differentiate between "designed" and "undesigned," so that which appears designed is likely the same as that in the universe which may not have been (exempting obviously man-made things and such like, focusing on the universe, matter, etc.). Therefore, it is impossible to tell whether or not life is "designed" because there is nothing undesigned to contrast it to, and it is therefore, without confirmation outside the ID train of thought, very likely undesigned.

At most I'd say there's a 50% chance of design vs. non-design, without any outside evidence or argument to back design. And I think I'm being somewhat generous to allow the two ideas even probability, as the idea of some almighty being MAKING everything, when take without outside evidence or argument, is quite a bit more farfetched than saying that things just came about via natural processes. But that's just me. Some'd say the chance of design would be higher... others'd say it'd be lower.

Deep Thought, over and out.

Cogito · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2006, 05:49:32 AM »

Quote from: Deep Thought

Therefore, it is impossible to tell whether or not life is "designed" because there is nothing undesigned to contrast it to, and it is therefore, without confirmation outside the ID train of thought, very likely undesigned.

True.

If ID theory is true, that is, if life 'appears' to be designed then it is very unlikely that a God who designed all things designed life because no particular thing can 'appear' to be designed if all things are designed.

If ID theory is false, that is, if life does NOT appear to be designed then it is very unlikely that God designed life because life does not appear to be designed.

This means that ID theory looks like a lose-lose proposition as far as Christian theology goes. At best ID theory might show that it's likely that life on earth was designed by intelligent aliens (or the equivalent) who, like humans and unlike the Christian God, did not also design everything else in the universe.

JustLiz · « **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2006, 08:44:48 AM »

Quote from: Cogito

p1: ID theory argues: If 'life' appears to be designed, then 'life' probably was designed.

p2: No thing can 'appear' to be designed, unless at least some thing appears not to be designed.

p3: Every thing in the universe was designed by God.

conclusion: If 'life' appears to humans to have been designed, then 'life' more than likely was not designed by God.

How do you get from p2 to p3? I don't see the connection.

And, I don't understand how the appearance of design means it wasn't designed. Again, I'm not seeing the connection.

Deep Thought · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2006, 01:26:57 PM »

Quote from: JustLiz

And, I don't understand how the appearance of design means it wasn't designed. Again, I'm not seeing the connection.

I don't think the point is that the appearance of design negates design, but that there is no discernable appearance of design in the first place. As far as I can tell, it's an argument to refute the reliability of ID theory (i.e. "there's no way to tell if this is true"), not to refute the theory itself (i.e. "there's no way this can be true").

EDIT: That said, the thread title does seem to have something else in mind. Care to clarify, Cog?

TheDoctor · « **Reply #5 on:** May 22, 2006, 02:42:17 PM »

Cogito, before we go any further with this, can you define what you mean by a "thing"? Do you mean something with a physical existence or do you have another definition in mind?

Cogito · « **Reply #6 on:** May 22, 2006, 09:41:01 PM »

Quote from: Deep Thought

That said, the thread title does seem to have something else in mind. Care to clarify, Cog?

The question is, if all "things" in the universe (and by this I mean "whatever exists" -- does that answer your question, Doc?) were designed by God, then what possible analysis might lead us to conclude that some particular thing was designed by God? What would we be looking for that would identify a thing as being designed by God? What could we discover that would mark a thing as being designed by God?

In the case of human design, we know what we are looking for. In other words, we can distinguish "that which is designed by humans" from "that which is not designed by humans." But how do we do the same in the case of Godly design?

We not only do not know how to distinguish that which was designed by God from that which was not, but we cannot know this. This is because all things were designed by God. There are no "distinguishing" traits that mark a thing as being designed by God because everything was designed by God. No particular thing can be distinguished from any other particular thing in this regard because all things have identical traits that mark them as being designed by God.

What this means is that no things can "appear" to be designed by God because we do not know what traits might possibly make them "appear" to be so. There are no "traits of Godly design" that can possibly distinguish any particular thing from any other thing because if God designed all things then all things have those same traits of Godly design.

Since no things can have distinguishing traits that might mark them as being designed by God, it's meaningless to say that "If a thing 'appears' to be designed by God. . . " because nothing can 'appear' to us to be designed by God.

If ID theory is true, that is, if there are discoverable traits in life that suggest design, then those traits cannot be traits associated with Godly design. Therefore, if ID theory is true, then it means that life was not designed by some entity or being that designed everything else, as well; i.e., not by God.

Heretic · « **Reply #7 on:** May 22, 2006, 10:29:22 PM »

Wow... Never thought of this. Just as the theist says one cannot know good if evil didn't exist to contrast it by, then appearance of design cannot exist without appearance of non-design to contrast it too.

Excellent.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #8 on:** May 22, 2006, 10:30:22 PM »

Keep pulling out that rope. We want to get the noose nice and tight.

Heretic · « **Reply #9 on:** May 22, 2006, 10:56:18 PM »

Lay out the refutation. I'm intrigued as all get out here.

I need popcorn!!

Cogito · « **Reply #10 on:** May 23, 2006, 12:54:29 AM »

To refute the argument that I'm making is simple. All that's necessary is for someone (sntjohnny?) to lay out the 'elements of Godly design'; that is, to name the specific traits that a thing must have to mark it as being designed by the being who designed everything.

If we don't know what these traits are, then how will we know when we've discovered them in a thing? Is it merely order, beauty, and complexity? If so, then what in the universe does NOT exhibit order, beauty, and complexity? If there is such a thing, does this then mean that that thing wasn't designed by the being who designed all things?

Obviously, since it cannot mean that, then the traits of being ordered, beautiful, and complex cannot be 'elements of godly design' unless those traits exist in everything. But if everything is ordered then nothing is disordered; if everything is complex, then nothing is simple; if everything is beautiful then nothing is plain; hence, those concepts dissolve into meaninglessness.

So what are the elements of "Godly design"? What traits must a thing possess that marks it as being designed by God?

Anyone?

If there is no one, then how is it possible that ID theory can provide even the slightest reason to believe that the Christian God designed life?

If ID theory is true, then it is strong evidence that life on earth was designed by something that did not design everything else as well as life on earth. Since the Christian God allegedly DID design everything else as well as life on earth, this uncategorically rules out that god as the designer who is even possibly discoverable by ID theory.

Copernicus · « **Reply #11 on:** May 23, 2006, 01:45:49 AM »

Quote from: sntjohnny

Keep pulling out that rope. We want to get the noose nice and tight.

Sntjohnny, be careful! He's likely to choke you to death.

TheDoctor · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2006, 07:46:52 AM »

Quote from: Cogito

(and by this I mean "whatever exists" -- does that answer your question, Doc?)

No, it doesn't. I had asked if by thing you meant an object with a "physical existence." Is that what you are referring to?

Cogito · « **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2006, 11:10:16 AM »

Quote from: TheDoctor

(and by this I mean "whatever exists" -- does that answer your question, Doc?)

No, it doesn't. I had asked if by thing you meant an object with a "physical existence." Is that what you are referring to?

No, that is not what you had asked. You had asked: "Do you mean something with a physical existence or do you have another definition in mind?"

Obviously I have "another definition in mind" and gave it.

"Whatever exists" includes "all things with physical existences." Another, perhaps better definition is, "all things that are real in the universe."

TheDoctor · « **Reply #14 on:** May 23, 2006, 11:34:27 AM »

Quote from: Cogito

Quote from: TheDoctor
(and by this I mean "whatever exists" -- does that answer your question, Doc?)

No, it doesn't. I had asked if by thing you meant an object with a "physical existence." Is that what you are referring to?

No, that is not what you had asked. You had asked: "Do you mean something with a physical existence or do you have another definition in mind?"

Obviously I have "another definition in mind" and gave it.

"Whatever exists" includes "all things with physical existences." Another, perhaps better definition is, "all things that are real in the universe."

Thanks for the clarification!

Two follow-ups:
1. How are you defining "real"?
2. Is your definition of "universe" exclusionary of other universes, the multiverse, or things which exist outside our universe?

Cogito · « **Reply #15 on:** May 23, 2006, 02:31:17 PM »

real: existing objectively in the world regardless of subjectivity or conventions of thought or language.

universe: all that is real.

TheDoctor · « **Reply #16 on:** May 23, 2006, 03:05:53 PM »

Quote from: Cogito

p1: ID theory argues: If 'life' appears to be designed, then 'life' probably was designed.

p2: No thing can 'appear' to be designed, unless at least some thing appears not to be designed.

p3: Every thing in the universe was designed by God.

conclusion: If 'life' appears to humans to have been designed, then 'life' more than likely was not designed by God.

Cog,

Let me temporarily grant your definitions and clarifications (reserving the right to come back to them later).

I'd like to seek some clarification on your premises.

Based on your definitions and premises, God exists outside the universe, correct? (Otherwise, your definitions would suggest God designed Himself).

Cogito · « **Reply #17 on:** May 23, 2006, 04:50:04 PM »

Quote from: TheDoctor

Based on your definitions and premises, God exists outside the universe, correct?.

No. My definitions and premises say nothing about the possible existence of a god or of an intelligent extraterrestrial much less the location of either's existence.

Personally, as you may know, I don't believe that gods exist but my argument here is neutral toward that proposition. It merely says that IF a being who designed the universe exists then we cannot single out any specific thing within the universe that was designed by that being by looking for elements of design in that particular thing unless we know what elements we are looking for.

Finding order, beauty, and complexity in a particular thing is not evidence and cannot be evidence that the thing was designed by anything if everything else in the universe also possesses order, beauty, and complexity.

So what are the elements of Godly design? What marks a thing as being designed by God? What are the elements of design that ID theorists can possibly find that will justify this claim, "Aha! Life was designed therefore our God, who designed everything, probably was the designer!"

If the theist assumes to begin with that his god designed everything then he's begging the question.

If OTOH he doesn't assume that his god designed everything and believes that ID theory has found evidence that his god designed life, then he must also admit that ID theory has found evidence that his god did not design everything.

For theists who believe that their god designed everything, ID theory is a lose-lose proposition.

Cogito · « **Reply #18 on:** May 23, 2006, 05:20:01 PM »

Quote from: JustLiz

How do you get from p2 to p3? I don't see the connection.

And, I don't understand how the appearance of design means it wasn't designed. Again, I'm not seeing the connection.

You're right, JL. The argument in its previous incarnation was sloppy. I hope this one expresses what I'm trying to say a bit more concisely.

Quote

p1: ID theory rests on the analogical argument: "If life 'appears' to be designed, then life probably was designed."

p2: No particular thing can 'appear' to be designed by a designer unless at least some particular thing appears not to be designed by that designer.

p3: According to Christian theology, all things in the universe were designed by God; thus, no particular thing in the universe was NOT designed by God.

conclusion: If ID theory is true and if life 'appears' to be designed, then this is evidence that life probably was NOT designed by God.

[I also edited the argument in the opening post to agree with this one.]

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #19 on:** May 23, 2006, 05:24:46 PM »

"My definitions and premises say nothing about the possible existence of a god or of an intelligent extraterrestrial much less the location of either's existence.

Personally, as you may know, I don't believe that gods exist but my argument here is neutral toward that proposition."

But your premises are supposed to be derived as an attack on a Christian argument. Premise 3 is undeniably so:

"According to Christian theology, all things in the universe were designed by God"

How is it that you have presumed to cite the contents of a Christian theological argument about 'things', 'the universe', 'design,' and 'God,' etcm while using definitions for those words that Christians would not use?

As it is, your definition of 'universe' was "all that is real," and naturally, by that definition, then, God cannot be real, because according to Christian theology, God is a real 'thing' outside the universe, but your definition of universe excludes- by definition- the possibility that God could even conceivably exist.

So, it seems to me that your argument isn't very powerful, even if granted. You seem to be going after the notion that the Christian God could be identified as the designer of the universe, but your definitions exclude it being possible for there to be ANY God outside the universe in the first place.

It seems to me that for your argument to have any force, at the very least you ought to be using the definitions that Christians would use.

Author Topic: ID Theory Refutes Notion That Christian God Designed Life (Read 23046 times)