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dattaswami

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Proof for atheists
« on: May 03, 2009, 08:33:35 PM »

Proof for atheists

Scientists have to accept the existence of the unimaginable nature from the practical example of the unimaginable limits of this infinite universe. Scientists may reject miracles but they cannot reject the unimaginable limits of space. One instance of the existence of an unimaginable entity is sufficient to prove the existence of unimaginable God. Miracles act as supporting evidence of the same concept.


Miracles are very widely distributed in the world to give proof for the existence of God to every human being, which is the basic requirement. If you pray sincerely in a temple or even in an open place, generally God gives you His answer through a miracle. Many have witnessed this in their lives. Sometimes due to the inevitable fruits of your past deeds, God keeps silent for sometime in spite of your prayers and that time is used for your transformation. Hence, scientists call this as probability or coincidence of events . Hence, God demonstrates specific miracles through His human form, to meet this twisted interpretation of scientists or atheists. Even devotees and demons do specific miracles.

God has given a wide coverage for spreading miracles since it involves the very basic issue of His existence.
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Solaris Paradox

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Re: Proof for atheists
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2009, 10:50:44 PM »

Proof for atheists

Scientists have to accept the existence of the unimaginable nature from the practical example of the unimaginable limits of this infinite universe. Scientists may reject miracles but they cannot reject the unimaginable limits of space. One instance of the existence of an unimaginable entity is sufficient to prove the existence of unimaginable God. Miracles act as supporting evidence of the same concept.

How does accepting the concept of a limitless empty space equate to accepting miracles? A limitless empty space is just about the most down-to-earth imagining of the cosmic borders that I can imagine...

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Miracles are very widely distributed in the world to give proof for the existence of God to every human being,

 [eek Oh my God, they ARE?! Why haven't I seen any yet?! It's not faaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiir...! :smt013

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which is the basic requirement. If you pray sincerely in a temple or even in an open place, generally God gives you His answer through a miracle.

Oh, jeez, that explains it. There hasn't been a sincere Christian for two thousand years, so the miracles stopped. Darn. I guess that means no proof for the nonbelievers, eh?

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Many have witnessed this in their lives. Sometimes due to the inevitable fruits of your past deeds, God keeps silent for sometime in spite of your prayers and that time is used for your transformation. Hence, scientists call this as probability or coincidence of events . Hence, God demonstrates specific miracles through His human form, to meet this twisted interpretation of scientists or atheists. Even devotees and demons do specific miracles.

There you go again using the present tense to describe an event reputedly far in the past.  #-o

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God has given a wide coverage for spreading miracles since it involves the very basic issue of His existence.

His insurance plan sucks. What a ripoff.

I'm switching to Geico! ---> :smt024

dattaswami

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Re: Proof for atheists
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 12:18:25 AM »

Proof for atheists

Scientists have to accept the existence of the unimaginable nature from the practical example of the unimaginable limits of this infinite universe. Scientists may reject miracles but they cannot reject the unimaginable limits of space. One instance of the existence of an unimaginable entity is sufficient to prove the existence of unimaginable God. Miracles act as supporting evidence of the same concept.

How does accepting the concept of a limitless empty space equate to accepting miracles? A limitless empty space is just about the most down-to-earth imagining of the cosmic borders that I can imagine...

Quote
Miracles are very widely distributed in the world to give proof for the existence of God to every human being,

 [eek Oh my God, they ARE?! Why haven't I seen any yet?! It's not faaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiir...! :smt013

Quote
which is the basic requirement. If you pray sincerely in a temple or even in an open place, generally God gives you His answer through a miracle.

Oh, jeez, that explains it. There hasn't been a sincere Christian for two thousand years, so the miracles stopped. Darn. I guess that means no proof for the nonbelievers, eh?

Quote
Many have witnessed this in their lives. Sometimes due to the inevitable fruits of your past deeds, God keeps silent for sometime in spite of your prayers and that time is used for your transformation. Hence, scientists call this as probability or coincidence of events . Hence, God demonstrates specific miracles through His human form, to meet this twisted interpretation of scientists or atheists. Even devotees and demons do specific miracles.


His insurance plan sucks. What a ripoff.

I'm switching to Geico! ---> :smt024



There is a difference in your thinking and definition of God.
God is beyond human logic. Hence whatever effort you put you can never completely understand Him.

God has no beginning and no end because God is unimaginable. The beginning and the end must be also unimaginable for an unimaginable item. The beginning and the end of the cosmic energy or space or the creation are also unimaginable. Therefore, the beginning and the end are unimaginable for the unimaginable item like God and also for the imaginable item like space. Therefore, the two points, which are the beginning-less and end-less characteristics cannot help you in understanding the real nature of God. If you start recognizing the God by simply these two points (beginning-less and end-less), you may think that God is an imaginable item like the space or energy or the creation. In fact based on these two characteristics people have imagined God as an imaginable item like space or energy or creation. This concept has misled people to such a low level that people think that God is the very infinite space or infinite energy or infinite creation. Therefore, one should filter the concept of God at this juncture itself. One should think that God has no beginning and no end because the beginning and the end of an unimaginable item are also unimaginable.

Such God desired to create this Universe for entertainment. The very desire itself is the Creation. In view of God this present materialized universe in only an idea or imagination or the very desire itself. Therefore, the desire to create the world is itself the desire and also the created world itself is a desire. Thus the creation, maintenance and dissolution of the imaginary world are also imaginations or desires. A part of this infinite creation is the individual soul. The soul is like a drop of the infinite ocean of imagination or desire of God. Thus, quantitatively the entire ocean of imagination of God is very huge compared to the tiny soul.

 Remember that both the Universe and the tiny soul are made of the same substance called as imagination or desire. Thus the force of the Universe is far greater than the force of the soul. Due to such huge quantitative difference of the same phase, the Universe, which is far stronger than the soul appears as a materialized entity for the soul. But this infinite ocean of desire, which is the infinite Universe is a tiny drop compared to the infinite force of God. Therefore, again due to the same quantitative difference of force the entire universe is just the very weak imagination from the view of God. Thus imagination and materialization exist simultaneously true from the point of God and soul.
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Solaris Paradox

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Re: Proof for atheists
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2009, 12:24:29 AM »

*sigh*

...Just quoting my post does nothing for you if you don't actually say anything that answers it.

dattaswami

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Re: Proof for atheists
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2009, 11:12:54 AM »

Proof for atheists

How does accepting the concept of a limitless empty space equate to accepting miracles? A limitless empty space is just about the most down-to-earth imagining of the cosmic borders that I can imagine...

Quote
Miracles are very widely distributed in the world to give proof for the existence of God to every human being,

 [eek Oh my God, they ARE?! Why haven't I seen any yet?! It's not faaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiir...! :smt013

Quote
which is the basic requirement. If you pray sincerely in a temple or even in an open place, generally God gives you His answer through a miracle.

Oh, jeez, that explains it. There hasn't been a sincere Christian for two thousand years, so the miracles stopped. Darn. I guess that means no proof for the nonbelievers, eh?

Quote
Many have witnessed this in their lives. Sometimes due to the inevitable fruits of your past deeds, God keeps silent for sometime in spite of your prayers and that time is used for your transformation. Hence, scientists call this as probability or coincidence of events . Hence, God demonstrates specific miracles through His human form, to meet this twisted interpretation of scientists or atheists. Even devotees and demons do specific miracles.

In fact, God created this imaginable nature in the Universe so that the existence of unimaginable nature can be relatively established. In the absence of unimaginable nature, the imaginable nature cannot have existence because both the unimaginable and imaginable natures are relative terms.

 Moreover, when the cause is unimaginable the process of generation of an imaginable product  from the unimaginable cause must be also unimaginable.  In the world we are seeing the generation of imaginable effect from another imaginable cause.  Therefore, the process of generation here is also imaginable.  There is no example in the world for the generation of imaginable product from unimaginable cause.  This world consists of all imaginable examples and the study of their relationships is the logic.  Such logic fails because the generation of the Universe from its cause (God) is unimaginable.  Hence, you cannot demand the entry of the nature of God into the Universe by logic of worldly examples. 
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Solaris Paradox

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Re: Proof for atheists
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2009, 02:49:39 PM »

You just did the exact same thing as last time, except for some reason you did it inside the quote tags.

That's it. I'm done with you.

Zagzagel

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Re: Proof for atheists
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2009, 05:00:11 PM »

There is a difference in your thinking and definition of God.

God has no beginning and no end because God is unimaginable.

I kinda like this person... making me fond of the thoughts..like those quoted above.

"Seek and ye shall find."?

:)

Hmmm..
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bob.appleyard

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Re: Proof for atheists
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2009, 09:35:08 PM »

Proof for atheists

Scientists have to accept the existence of the unimaginable nature from the practical example of the unimaginable limits of this infinite universe. Scientists may reject miracles but they cannot reject the unimaginable limits of space. One instance of the existence of an unimaginable entity is sufficient to prove the existence of unimaginable God. Miracles act as supporting evidence of the same concept.

The observable universe is finite in both time and space. What is unobservable is a point of interesting conversation, no more.

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Miracles are very widely distributed in the world to give proof for the existence of God to every human being, which is the basic requirement.

Miracles cannot, by their very definition, occur. If they could, they wouldn't be miraculous.

This is an important point, because it is actually quite easy to trick people. Otherwise magicians and their ilk wouldn't be able to ply their trade (honestly or not).

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If you pray sincerely in a temple or even in an open place, generally God gives you His answer through a miracle. Many have witnessed this in their lives. Sometimes due to the inevitable fruits of your past deeds, God keeps silent for sometime in spite of your prayers and that time is used for your transformation.

Straight out of the con artist's textbook. If their tricks don't work, it's your fault for not trusting in them enough.

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Hence, scientists call this as probability or coincidence of events . Hence, God demonstrates specific miracles through His human form, to meet this twisted interpretation of scientists or atheists. Even devotees and demons do specific miracles.

Your conflation of scientists and demons aside, the sole reason why so many checks are included in an experiment is to guard against such bogus assumptions. To take a simple case, you have some illness, say, non-specific back pain. I wave my hands over you in some ritual. I have magic hands, so I claim. Your back pain decreases.

Is that because my hands have magic powers? Or is it due to the expectations of those concerned in the treatment (the so-called "placebo effect")? Could it be what is called "regression to the mean," that is that the effects of a particular illness often wax and wane naturally, and one is likely to see medical help when the illness is at its worst?

Impossible to tell, unless we include various controls. In this case, it might be someone untrained in the art of magic hands performing a routine similar to my own patented technique. If there is no difference in outcome between the real magic and the fake magic, then we should conclude that I do not, in fact, have magic hands.

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God has given a wide coverage for spreading miracles since it involves the very basic issue of His existence.

Oh yes, we were talking about miracles. Miracles cannot happen. This is because if they could happen, it would violate everything that you currently live your life by. For instance, that up is up and down is down. Indeed, what makes miracles miraculous is that they cannot happen. Well, if you are yourself witness to such a miraculous event, think to yourself what is more likely. Did the miracle occur? or were you simply mistaken? If you see a magician saw a lady in half and then reassemble her, did that actually occur? or were you tricked? If you pray for an impossible event to occur, and it does, does that mean that prayer worked, or are your senses merely deceiving you? Is it merely, as you put it, coincidence?

The more likely answer in all of those questions is always the latter: you are deceived, or are deceiving yourself. This, on its own, does not mean that miracles cannot occur, but combined with the previous notion, that is that if they did occur they would not be miraculous (because they could be observed, and so explained), it makes the case extremely weak.

I do not believe that the corollary of all this needs to be spelled out. Nonetheless, I shall. Given that religion, as it is understood in the West, relies on miracles, it is not possible, as a rational being, to believe its claims. That does not mean that one should no longer have faith (or whatever you would like to call it), but one should recognise that said faith is irrational: informally, that it violates every assumption that you otherwise live your life by.

This is largely a paraphrasing of David Hume. You should really familiarise yourself with his writings, because his conclusions are pretty much irrefutable. This has informed proper Christian apologetics ever since; for the better, I might add.
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End Bringer

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Re: Proof for atheists
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2009, 04:52:35 PM »

Oh yes, we were talking about miracles. Miracles cannot happen. This is because if they could happen, it would violate everything that you currently live your life by. For instance, that up is up and down is down. Indeed, what makes miracles miraculous is that they cannot happen. Well, if you are yourself witness to such a miraculous event, think to yourself what is more likely. Did the miracle occur? or were you simply mistaken? If you see a magician saw a lady in half and then reassemble her, did that actually occur? or were you tricked? If you pray for an impossible event to occur, and it does, does that mean that prayer worked, or are your senses merely deceiving you? Is it merely, as you put it, coincidence?

Your arguement is based on nothing but assertion. Miracles would indeed violate the natural laws that are set to occur more often than not. You don't really present a reason to believe such a violation is inherently impossible.

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The more likely answer in all of those questions is always the latter: you are deceived, or are deceiving yourself. This, on its own, does not mean that miracles cannot occur, but combined with the previous notion, that is that if they did occur they would not be miraculous (because they could be observed, and so explained), it makes the case extremely weak.

Sure. Christians have nothing to worry about in conceding miracles are unlikely. Sadly for your arguement unlikely is not the same as impossible. If your going by unlikely as an arguement for something never occuring then I guess you'd have to deny the fact that airplanes sometimes crash. Such events are unlikely as well, but no rational being would take this as prima facia evidence for it being impossible.

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I do not believe that the corollary of all this needs to be spelled out. Nonetheless, I shall. Given that religion, as it is understood in the West, relies on miracles, it is not possible, as a rational being, to believe its claims. That does not mean that one should no longer have faith (or whatever you would like to call it), but one should recognise that said faith is irrational: informally, that it violates every assumption that you otherwise live your life by.

Only when you irrationally hold miracles are impossible a priori. Thus question beg and make circular arguements.

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This is largely a paraphrasing of David Hume. You should really familiarise yourself with his writings, because his conclusions are pretty much irrefutable. This has informed proper Christian apologetics ever since; for the better, I might add.

And like Hume you question beg and use circular logic. His conclusions have been refuted by more Christian apologetics than have been needed, but it doesn't keep people from using his arguements. Humes arguements rest on uniqueness equating to impossibility, but given any event that occurs can be said to be unique in some way means that following his thinking would lead to denying reality all together. His arguement was as flawed then as it is now.
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Pixie

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Re: Proof for atheists
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2009, 06:12:58 PM »

Bob, do you believe in medical science? If so, consider someone who has been in a car that has flipped three times. They are at deaths door. They are told that they will need half-a-dozen reconstructive surgeries ... The people at their church begin to pray ... A few weeks later they walk away from the hospital without a single surgery ... The doctor's have no idea how this could happen since their earliest tests where accurate ...

This is a true story ... Is this a miracle?

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