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Copernicus

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« on: November 12, 2005, 10:44:43 AM »

One issue that really separates atheists from the faithful is the idea that the individual can survive death by treading the path of religious devotion.  I take the position that this belief is extremely dangerous in an era where weapons of mass destruction are becoming easy to manufacture and distribute.  Why is the idea so dangerous?  Because some people will do anything--undergo any hardship and commit any atrocity--to better their chances for a reward in the afterlife.  In most people, the idea is harmless, or it results in harm to relatively few people.  In some, it can have catastrophic consequences.

What are the advantages of belief in survival of death?  We fear death more than anything else, so this idea is powerfully attractive.  When does the belief  become malignant?  That is when the believer thinks that his or her reward will be greatest by carrying out the wishes of an angry deity.  I am, of course, thinking most about islamic jihadists who commit suicide (almost daily now) in order to fulfill God's order to kill infidels.  We have a similar mentality among Christians who long for (and may even work for) the destruction of Armageddon so that Rapture will finally come.  

The greatest threat to society today is posed by those who fearlessly commit senseless acts of terrorism in the belief that they will survive death and gain a heavenly reward for their deeds.
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Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  --Anonymous

Zagzagel

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2005, 09:28:25 PM »

Quote
I am, of course, thinking most about islamic jihadists who commit suicide (almost daily now) in order to fulfill God's order to kill infidels. We have a similar mentality among Christians who long for (and may even work for) the destruction of Armageddon so that Rapture will finally come.


I can easily hold your hand here.  But so can alot of Christians.  There are Christian groups and organizations that are getting away from this "rapture" and "Armageddon" idea because there is the realization that we are to be the healing leaves to the nations.  This beats the idea of wishing fire and brimstone on a world which some will secretly escape through a vanishing.  There is alot to be said here but I will content myself with just that for now.

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The greatest threat to society today is posed by those who fearlessly commit senseless acts of terrorism in the belief that they will survive death and gain a heavenly reward for their deeds.


Whats the best way to correct this problem?
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Copernicus

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2005, 10:02:01 PM »

Quote from: geegee
Whats the best way to correct this problem?


To begin with, I think we need to confront the reality that we are like all other living organisms.  Our existence is temporary, however much we might wish otherwise.  Our behavior cannot be based on the belief that we will be rewarded or punished after death for the way we behave before it.  The consequences of our behavior for ourselves and our progeny are only in this life, and no amount of love or mayhem will change that.  People who fly planes into buildings because they believe God will reward them in the afterlife are no more insane than those who do great acts of good under the same delusion.  The same type of belief that can sink people to the greatest depths of depravity can also uplift them to the greatest heights of selflessness.  It is a dangerous belief that we could afford to tolerate before we were capable of manufacturing weapons of mass destruction.  We can no longer afford that delusion.
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Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  --Anonymous

FUSSCCJ

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2005, 02:31:15 AM »

I think you
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Copernicus

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2005, 11:23:36 AM »

I agree with much of what you say, FUSSCCJ, but my intent was to examine the belief that we can survive death and how that impacts behavior.  I believe that this idea is the root of great evil and that it threatens modern civilization.

Regrettably, relations between myself and sntjohnny have taken a turn for the worse, so I think it best to withdraw from his board.  Sorry for the abrupt departure.  Perhaps we'll meet again elsewhere.
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Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  --Anonymous

FUSSCCJ

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2005, 11:27:02 AM »

I
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FUSSCCJ

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2005, 05:36:22 AM »

I hear that you
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TheAtheistHeratic

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2005, 04:17:02 PM »

Its because it only takes this belief with a few people to kill everyone on earth.  The U. S Goverment has enough nuclear weapons to destroy the earth more than once.  So technically in the modern world it only takes one person with this belief. Scary isn't it.
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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." (Washington, D.C., April 1999) [2]

"One of the great achievements of science has been, if not to make it impossible for intelligent people to be religious, then at least to make it possible for them not to be religious. We should not retreat from this accomplishment." (ibid.)
[edit]

Both quotes of Steven Weinberg

Zagzagel

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2005, 07:18:52 PM »

It can be scary...but not for me.  Are you scared?  Why?  I see hope for the whole of humanity.  I will respond to Cops last post to mine if he has indeed not yet departed our presence here on the snjohnny forum.
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Copernicus

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2005, 10:39:09 PM »

Quote from: FUSSCCJ
I think you
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Zagzagel

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2005, 11:09:50 PM »

Oh, good.  Now that I see that you, Cop, have decided to stick around, I will respond to some of the points you made to my comments awhile ago.  But that will be tomorrow..I am toooo tired at this point and must get rest for another forthcoming day.  May the God of our creation grant you peace and rest.  Hey, IF you think you already have that, then I pray that He gives you much wisdom to discern much more....this way, I then will have much more to learn from another!!! [biggrin

Blessings.
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FUSSCCJ

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2005, 10:43:47 AM »

Quote from: TheAtheistHeratic
Its because it only takes this belief with a few people to kill everyone on earth.  The U. S Goverment has enough nuclear weapons to destroy the earth more than once.  So technically in the modern world it only takes one person with this belief. Scary isn't it.


But this doesn
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TheAtheistHeratic

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2005, 03:56:27 PM »

Religion is like nuclear technology. It can be used for mass destruction. When used for the purposes of helping people, it can suddenly just go off killing many innocent people.
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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." (Washington, D.C., April 1999) [2]

"One of the great achievements of science has been, if not to make it impossible for intelligent people to be religious, then at least to make it possible for them not to be religious. We should not retreat from this accomplishment." (ibid.)
[edit]

Both quotes of Steven Weinberg

Copernicus

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2005, 11:14:52 PM »

Quote from: FUSSCCJ
But this doesn
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FUSSCCJ

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2005, 10:13:47 AM »

So the belief in an afterlife is inherently dangerous because it can
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Zagzagel

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2005, 06:27:13 PM »

Fuss.  You're last post reminds me of an illustration.  (and I think everyone is familiar with this one..lol)

The Knife.  Or even the Gun...or..etc.  The tool is never evil?
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Copernicus

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2005, 09:23:34 PM »

Quote from: FUSSCCJ
So the belief in an afterlife is inherently dangerous because it can
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FUSSCCJ

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2005, 10:34:42 AM »

Alrighty, I voted "not sure" (even though I am sure: it is neither and both).

Quote
The belief is that one's behavior in life controls one's fate in the afterlife. It doesn't matter whether you die tomorrow. What matters is that you die in a state of grace, no matter what you have to do to achieve it...
 Very well explained, thanks.  This assumes that the belief is false (although I guess I can make that assumption if you
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Copernicus

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2005, 12:13:22 PM »

Quote from: FUSSCCJ
Alrighty, I voted "not sure" (even though I am sure: it is neither and both).


You are correct.  A better alternative would have been "neither" or "not applicable".  You don't agree with the simple generalization, but you do agree that the statement is sometimes applicable to the belief.

Quote
...The other thing is that almost all religions don
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TheAtheistHeratic

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The dangerous idea of life after death
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2005, 04:07:34 PM »

:wink:
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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." (Washington, D.C., April 1999) [2]

"One of the great achievements of science has been, if not to make it impossible for intelligent people to be religious, then at least to make it possible for them not to be religious. We should not retreat from this accomplishment." (ibid.)
[edit]

Both quotes of Steven Weinberg
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