But that is just me.

That sums it up - every Atheist is different.

For me, I see no reason to believe so I don't. I don't have specific reasons to disbelieve, which seems to be what many Christians want to hear from Atheists. The issues you claim we dodge aren't necessarily issues to the Atheist. The sarcastic witticisms aren't the exclusive domain of the Atheist, read any of SJs posts where someone disagrees with his mighty manifesto.

Let me turn it around - why do you believe?

Fair enough to both of you. I've never liked using labels much. What one person calls an atheist, another will call an agnostic, and another still will just call plain dumb (sometimes justifiably and sometimes not).

But that's true for both sides (or all sides. Or whatever). I can't tell you how many times I've been asked to defend something I don't believe in (YEC, abortion clinic bombings, Christian Music) merely because I am a Christian. My great grandpa was a Methodist minister who was also a physically abusive alcoholic. As a result, my Grandpa never felt comfortable with religion or church in general. I suspected that, no matter how convincingly you explain the life of Jesus Christ to him, he would likely remain an atheist/agnostic or just apathetic until his death. As far as I know, I was right about that. Stick something like that to the Christian label in your mind and it's awful hard to make a distinction, no matter how illogical the result may be.

People attach a lot of bad things to Christianity, things that, from my perspective, shouldn't be there. I think it's a lot better to tell people about Jesus and the things he taught. Chances are most people (even you, stat) would agree that the beatitudes are good and moral and right even if they aren't Christians.

I think we can both agree that, no matter who you are, there are always people out there willing to tell you what they assume you believe and then ridicule you for it. That's why, when people tell me they're an atheist or an agnostic or something else entirely, I like to ask them why. I'm not trying to shot them down and prove them wrong. I can't. I think it's nicer to know what lead them to where they are and, if there were some Christians in their past who caused them pain, apologize in the best way I can. 

******************For DT:
What are some of the things that cause you to doubt? What are some of the things you expect of Christianity - or theism in general - that you don't see? What is some of the philosophical stuff you've been hearing that confuses you?

for me, atheism is merely throwing my hands up in surrender and admitting that I don't have a clue.

In my opinion, that's a large part of being a follower of Christ as well.

But that is just me .... And definitely not Stathei, Copernicus, or Cogito.

Heh heh. Johnny and I are not the same either. We might agree on a lot, but we've had a few heated arguments as well.

But you already knew that, right?

Actually, no. I havne't been around here in a while and I have either forgotten most of what you said or was not around to hear you say it. Did you used to go by another name?

******************For stat:

For me, I see no reason to believe so I don't. I don't have specific reasons to disbelieve, which seems to be what many Christians want to hear from Atheists.

I think the reason you get so much of that is that a lot of Christians, particularly the philosophical sort (or the kind that would actively go online to take part in a forum about these issues), tend to also be the sort who have looked for reasons and then made a decision based on those reasons. Granted, some of us have looked for reasons to support what we have been taught since birth, but many of us (myself included) have looked for things to challenge those long held beliefs and, in the process, have come out the other side with new beliefs and a new faith.

What I

******************For DT:
What are some of the things that cause you to doubt? What are some of the things you expect of Christianity - or theism in general - that you don't see? What is some of the philosophical stuff you've been hearing that confuses you?

Chiefly my own lack of actual knowledge. On the philosophical side of things, it's that I've heard so many opposing arguments that all make approximately the same amount of sense when I toss them over in my mind.

I've already expressed the desire to do the research required for a workable conclusion, but I haven't been able to do that yet--mostly due to time constraints.

In my opinion, that's a large part of being a follower of Christ as well.

On a somewhat different level, certainly.

Quote

But that is just me .... And definitely not Stathei, Copernicus, or Cogito.

Heh heh. Johnny and I are not the same either. We might agree on a lot, but we've had a few heated arguments as well.

Quote

But you already knew that, right?

Actually, no. I havne't been around here in a while and I have either forgotten most of what you said or was not around to hear you say it. Did you used to go by another name?

"That" was actually just referring to the statement that it was not Stathei, Cop, or Cog.

But yeah, I don't think you were around when I signed on as DT. I definitely remember you from my more naive days, though. I went by the name of "Sir Somebody Something."

DT

Chiefly my own lack of actual knowledge. On the philosophical side of things, it's that I've heard so many opposing arguments that all make approximately the same amount of sense when I toss them over in my mind.

I

Sasq, I think you are just trying to impress me with the quality of your posts  ...

Not much time to post, but on your first question, the more I read the more I understand. The parts I don't understand are due to my feeble mind, and likely the human mind in general - beyond our comprehension does not mean God, it just means beyond our comprehension. I do not read religious texts, they don't speak to me at all.

My opinion of Jesus is similar to my opinion of the Bible. Some great words, some horrifying. Let us be clear on one point - morality, whether Christian or Atheist, is human morality and not Biblical morality. We cherrypick the parts of the Bible we agree with (thou shalt not kill, do unto others, etc) while we ignore the parts we don't agree with (stoning non virgin wives, killing unbelievers). If we agreed with the Bible we would feel entitled to keep slaves - but we don't, whether we are Christian or not. Jesus is likely a fictional character who said great things, but also said appalling things that we choose to forget.


DT, sorry to hear about your current problems. All I can say it that things will get better - you have great qualities and you are far from an airhead. I know you will work things out and go from strength to strength.

My opinion of Jesus is similar to my opinion of the Bible. Some great words, some horrifying....Jesus is likely a fictional character who said great things, but also said appalling things that we choose to forget.

Just curious....can you give me an example of something appalling/horrifying that Jesus said?

DT

It's the empirical side o' the coin that'll decide this, or nothing'll be decided at all.

What do you mean by

So, what is your problem with this passage?

It basically says your forked if you don't follow Jesus. That's a lot of people to "burn in the fire".