Topic: You say natural, I say supernatural. You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe. (Read 1256 times)

JustLiz · « **on:** February 13, 2007, 11:41:28 PM »

Isaiah 55:8-9

The Sasquatch · « **Reply #1 on:** February 14, 2007, 08:59:17 AM »

This comment is completely unrelated to your post (which was cool, by the way)...

I once was out with some friends when we accidentally happened upon a karaoke bar. Normally, we leave as fast as possible (because karaoke ranks just above Chinese water torture and C-SPAN on the list of things I just can't stand), but the lady singing at that moment made us all stop and laugh. She was singing the "You say potato, I say po-tah-to" song, except she apparently hadn't heard the song before, because she didn't pronounce the words differently. She said, "You say po-tay-to. I say po-tay-to. You say to-may-to and I say to-may-to...let's call the whole thing off!" All she had were the words on the karaoke machine and, if she hadn't heard the song before, it only makes sense that she'd pronounce them normally since that's how they were written.

People rolled with laughter, and she was a bit self conscious at first, apparently because she didn't understand why everyone thought it was so funny. Eventually, she got into it and belted out quite possibly the worst rendition of that song, save the time my ex-roommate sang it on the front lawn in nothing but his boots and underwear to the tune of some wacked out British speed metal band when we were in college.

There was a lot of alcohol involved in that one, in case you couldn't tell.

...proceed with your regularly scheduled discussion.

Copernicus · « **Reply #2 on:** February 14, 2007, 05:02:40 PM »

Quote from: JustLiz on February 13, 2007, 11:41:28 PM

I was sitting here pondering this verse and how it applies to one of the arguments I see on here frequently. I have heard the atheists cite that, prior to our contemporary scientific knowledge, earthquakes and such were explained as being acts of God, but now that the natural causes of earthquakes and such are understood, they no longer fall into that category.

I think I see where you are going with this. Let's distinguish two types of causes--direct and indirect. A direct causal event is one in which there are conceptually no intervening events between the antecedent and consequent. An indirect causal event is one in which there is a conceptual chain of events that intervenes between the antecedent and consequent. In the past, people interpreted natural events to be directly caused by gods, who have the power to contravene natural physical events. Nowadays, religious folks are a bit more sophisticated. They don't give up the idea of causal influence by gods (or God), but the influence is indirect. God still retains the option of directly contravening the laws of nature, but he refrains from doing so so as not to deprive us of our free will to make bad choices.

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For example, the Exodus from the Old Testament records that God led the people with a pillar of smoke during the day and a pillar of fire during the night. Well, in order for God to do this, He had to leave a physical record of this. Anytime God interacts with us, He

The Sasquatch · « **Reply #3 on:** February 15, 2007, 12:55:30 PM »

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The fact that we don't detect gods by natural means is one of those conundra that theists have long pondered and atheists have not.

I once went to a soccer field looking for a baseball player, but I didn't find one. There must be no such thing as baseball players.

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If the Bible accurately reports historical events, then miracles did happen. What atheists tend to pooh-pooh is that the Bible accurately records historical events. It's maddening, I know, but they tend to treat the Bible as if it were no more historically accurate than, say, the Upanishads, the Gilgamesh tale, or the Book of Mormon.

Why?

Copernicus · « **Reply #4 on:** February 15, 2007, 01:15:40 PM »

Quote from: The Sasquatch on February 15, 2007, 12:55:30 PM

The fact that we don't detect gods by natural means is one of those conundra that theists have long pondered and atheists have not.

I once went to a soccer field looking for a baseball player, but I didn't find one. There must be no such thing as baseball players.

If you never found any baseball players in baseball fields and had to take the word of others that they exist, then your conclusion might begin to be analogous to what I said. You are so primed to reject everything I say that you cannot even figure out how to mount a decent reductio ad absurdum attack.

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If the Bible accurately reports historical events, then miracles did happen. What atheists tend to pooh-pooh is that the Bible accurately records historical events. It's maddening, I know, but they tend to treat the Bible as if it were no more historically accurate than, say, the Upanishads, the Gilgamesh tale, or the Book of Mormon.

Why?

Because those who promote the Bible as historically accurate cannot show that it is any more accurate than the sacred literatures of all the other false religions.

The Sasquatch · « **Reply #5 on:** February 16, 2007, 04:01:24 PM »

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You are so primed to reject everything I say

No I'm not! ... wait, what?

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a decent reductio ad absurdum attack.

Is that one of them anime things? I've always been intrigued by anime. It's so intricate.

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If you never found any baseball players in baseball fields and had to take the word of others that they exist, then your conclusion might begin to be analogous to what I said.

Ok. A more honest response. More of a question, really. When you say, "detect god by natural means," what do you mean?

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Because those who promote the Bible as historically accurate cannot show that it is any more accurate than the sacred literatures of all the other false religions.

Why are those who try to promote the Bible as historically accurate wrong?

Copernicus · « **Reply #6 on:** February 16, 2007, 04:35:13 PM »

Quote from: The Sasquatch on February 16, 2007, 04:01:24 PM

Ok. A more honest response. More of a question, really. When you say, "detect god by natural means," what do you mean?

Natural means are those that involve our normal bodily senses. For example, the ancients claimed to have seen and heard miraculous events. They were able to witness divine interventions quite often and quite naturally. The conundrum for all believers is why their gods don't show up regularly in the direct and verifiable manner that they did in the past. An atheist would explain the phenomenon in terms of the fictional nature of the being.

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Because those who promote the Bible as historically accurate cannot show that it is any more accurate than the sacred literatures of all the other false religions.

Why are those who try to promote the Bible as historically accurate wrong?

They aren't necessarily wrong. Like other religious literature, there are references to real events mixed in with the fictional. What I said was that promoters of biblical accuracy are no better able to show the accuracy of their historical claims than the promoters of false religions. That doesn't mean that the events necessarily never happened.

Author Topic: You say natural, I say supernatural. You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe. (Read 1256 times)

JustLiz

You say natural, I say supernatural. You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe.

The Sasquatch

Re: You say natural, I say supernatural. You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe.

Copernicus

Re: You say natural, I say supernatural. You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe.

The Sasquatch

Re: You say natural, I say supernatural. You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe.

Copernicus

Re: You say natural, I say supernatural. You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe.

The Sasquatch

Re: You say natural, I say supernatural. You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe.

Copernicus

Re: You say natural, I say supernatural. You say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe.