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Copernicus

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The View from the Center of the Universe
« on: May 28, 2006, 12:20:03 PM »

Recently, I expressed the opinion that, if God had created us, we would be at the center of the universe.  Rareairpug suggested that there was actual scientific evidence that we were, and he cited a rather old study to support his claim.  I want to start out this thread by acknowledging that we do appear to be at the center of the universe, and I will cite a more recent work to prove it.  The book is The View from the Center of the Universe by Joel Primack and his wife, Nancy Ellen Abrams.

Primack is an eminent cosmologist at UC Santa Cruz, and he co-teaches a popular course with his wife on the subject of cosmology and religion.  The book itself is about new scientific findings about the nature of the universe.  It is very light on mathematics, and it attempts to describe modern cosmology in language that is completely understandable to most people with a reasonable educational background.  Also, the book is anything but anti-religious.  One of its goals is to defend the notion that humans are unique and special in this universe from a scientific perspective.

On the other hand, this book is not something that religious conservatives will be comfortable with.  It goes into great detail on why the universe must be over 14 billion years old--a theory that has been solidly proven by a wide variety of corroborative observations and laboratory experiments.  It examines ancient Egyptian and Hebrew cosmology, and it explains how that early cosmology changed over time into our present science-based view of the universe.

So, why would people like sntjohnny and rareairpug want to read this book?  It contradicts their cosmology from almost the very beginning, and it soars off in a direction that is anathema to their worldview.  My answer is simple.  This book gives one the very latest scientific findings--within the past couple of years--and some rather big changes have happened to scientific cosmology since the 1990s.  Many of the competing theories of cosmology have dropped away, and the winner actually has something to say about what happened BEFORE the Big Bang.  Having read this book, religious conservatives will be armed with a much better, more up-to-date idea of the theory that they are competing with.  

What is the current cosmology like?  It is called the "Double Dark" theory of the universe.  The central claim is that only .5% of the universe is visible matter--directly detectable--to us.  4% consists of "invisible atoms"--material that could be detected in principle.  The rest consists of 25% dark matter and 70% dark energy.    Dark matter explains why galaxies don't fly apart and dark energy explains why the universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate.  Neither dark matter nor dark energy can be detected.  We know of its existence only through mathematical models (which have been experimentally confirmed), but efforts are under way to detect it through more direct means.  We have no other good theory to explain why galaxies and clusters of galaxies behave the way they do.

What is so unique about humans?  We evolved at exactly the midway point between the birth and the "death" of the visible universe.  We are composed of the rarest elements in the universe--literally stardust.  And we are exactly midway in size between the smallest and largest objects in existence.  They go into great detail on why they think that all of that matters.  I highly recommend this book.
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Anthony Horvath

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The View from the Center of the Universe
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2006, 02:06:13 PM »

I thank you for the recommendation.  I'm not entirely sure why you thought we'd be unaware of some of the dark matter issues...  on the other hand, as I recall, those were debates that Phil had with some of us and I'm not sure if you were here for those.

After I started my thread about favorite works from folks that don't share one's own views, I thought maybe some book reviews would be a good idea.  This one that you just gave is right in the spirit of that.

Because of my European trip I am reading a number of books specifically about Intelligent Design that I think I'd recommend, just because I think they do a fair job of illustrating what ID is, and not how it is presented by others.  But I'm just now working through that material.

Feel free to post other such recommendations.  I have one by a buddhist that I will put up myself in about a week.
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Copernicus

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The View from the Center of the Universe
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2006, 02:57:21 PM »

Quote from: sntjohnny
I thank you for the recommendation.  I'm not entirely sure why you thought we'd be unaware of some of the dark matter issues...  on the other hand, as I recall, those were debates that Phil had with some of us and I'm not sure if you were here for those.


No, I wasn't in on those debates.  Dark matter has been around for a long time, so I'm not surprised that you know about it.  Primack and Abrams do a superb job of explaining the most recent corroboration of that theory and of tying up loose ends.  More importantly, though, the book talks a lot about implications for religion.  While you may not agree with the authors' views, I think you'll enjoy it for its clarity.  Abrams, after all, is an artist and a poet.  So she is probably the one who contributed most to making the book readable and entertaining.
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rareairpug

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The View from the Center of the Universe
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2006, 05:22:52 PM »

Interesting stuff, Cop.  Thanks for the recommendation.  I'll see if I can pick that book up somewhere.
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TheDoctor

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Re: The View from the Center of the Universe
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2006, 08:18:29 AM »

Quote from: Copernicus
Many of the competing theories of cosmology have dropped away, and the winner actually has something to say about what happened BEFORE the Big Bang.


That's interesting since the very nature of physics says it is impossible to know anything before 10^-43 seconds after the beginning of the universe.
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Copernicus

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Re: The View from the Center of the Universe
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2006, 11:04:28 AM »

Quote from: TheDoctor
That's interesting since the very nature of physics says it is impossible to know anything before 10^-43 seconds after the beginning of the universe.


That's not quite correct.  It is impossible to directly observe anything before that time, but it is not impossible to deduce conditions that gave rise to the Big Bang by observing their effect.  What we observe is that there are fluctuations in the background radiation left over from the Big Bang.  We can build computer models that model those fluctuations.  Primack has been one of the leading pioneers in this method.
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TheDoctor

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Re: The View from the Center of the Universe
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2006, 07:06:35 PM »

Quote from: Copernicus
Quote from: TheDoctor
That's interesting since the very nature of physics says it is impossible to know anything before 10^-43 seconds after the beginning of the universe.


That's not quite correct.  It is impossible to directly observe anything before that time, but it is not impossible to deduce conditions that gave rise to the Big Bang by observing their effect.  What we observe is that there are fluctuations in the background radiation left over from the Big Bang.  We can build computer models that model those fluctuations.  Primack has been one of the leading pioneers in this method.


Incorrect, Cop.

Link
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Copernicus

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Re: The View from the Center of the Universe
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2006, 08:32:27 PM »

Quote from: TheDoctor
Incorrect, Cop.

Link


Thanks for the Wikipedia link, Doc.  How do you think that it contradicts what I said?  That the background radiation is unevenly distributed, i.e. has "wrinkles", is a factual observation.  It was originally expected to be uniform.  Scientists have been simulating possible explanations, which allows them to rule out certain pre-Big Bang possibilities.  Scientific theories do not represent absolute truth, but the best explanation consitent with facts.  Hence, scientists are able to say something about pre-Big Bang conditions.  Advances in computer technology have been making it possible for us to conduct experiments that were never dreamed possible in the past.

BTW, Premack and Abrams end up affirming their belief in "God", but I don't think that it is the type of God that religious conservatives have in mind.
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rareairpug

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The View from the Center of the Universe
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2006, 12:17:42 PM »

I stumbled across the souce I was thinking of when this whole conversation started.  Here is a link to the book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0192821474/002-7159377-9182440?v=glance&n=283155
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Copernicus

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The View from the Center of the Universe
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2006, 11:15:35 AM »

The anthropic principle takes the position that the parameters for human life to occur in this universe are so narrow as to make it incredulous that the universe were not constructed for human life.  

Primack suggests that our existence is quite reasonable, but only at this stage of evolution in the universe.  The universe had to be around long enough for the heavier elements to form inside of stars and get blown back out into the universe.  We are essentially constructed out of the flotsam from exploding stars.  Given that stars explode with clockwork regularity, it was only a matter of time before life evolved from the heavy elements that accumulated from those explosions.

The chances that intelligent life could evolve are extremely small, when one considers all of the coincidences that led to us, not the least of which was the extinction of the dinosaurs.  But in a universe as vast as ours and as old as ours, those kinds of coincidences are likely to take place many times throughout the universe.

The problem with the anthropic argument is that it rests on our ignorance of whether other universes also exist, whether anything but our type of universe could occur, and whether different types of intelligent life might evolve in different types of universes.  Scientists are working on puzzles like this.  Religionists, unfortunately, have jumped to their own conclusion without any attempt at all to check the facts.  Indeed, the tendency among the religious is to resist any alternative hypotheses at all about the orgin of intelligent life in this universe.
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