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Author Topic: Ancient Jewish texts vs. ancient Christian texts  (Read 695 times)

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Ragnar

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Ancient Jewish texts vs. ancient Christian texts
« on: August 12, 2005, 09:09:13 AM »

I have a question mainly for NoJC, but anyone else feel free to respond: What makes you believe the ancient Jewish texts are any better than the Christian texts? Whenever you refute something in the NT, you simply use older sacred texts as your evidence. To me, saying this old dead guy was wrong because it doesn't mesh with what this older dead guy said doesn't really make sense. Why do you believe the writers of the OT had some link with a god, and yet at the same time are able to see the folly inherent in the NT? What makes one better than the other? What other independent evidence is there to support anything in the ancient Hebrew texts, other than more ancient Hebrew texts?

You stated that the Jesus of the NT was really alive a hundred years before the NT said he was. Okay, if this person seems to have been mentioned in older texts, then I can accept that. But then you also said that you believe he did perform miracles. I'm also assuming that you believe stories such as Moses splitting the sea are true. You seem like a rational person, so what causes you to accept these stories as true, if it is not mere faith?
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"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."  
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nojc4me

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Ancient Jewish texts vs. ancient Christian texts
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2005, 09:30:40 AM »

Ragnar said:

I have a question mainly for NoJC, but anyone else feel free to respond: What makes you believe the ancient Jewish texts are any better than the Christian texts?

There are a few reasons I have, but I'd like to differentiate between Biblical texts and nt texts.
There is a set standard for the Biblical Texts, and that standard is the Masoretic Text. The text of the Torah (the Five Books of Moses) is set in stone. Of all of the Torah Scrolls in every Jewish community - even those separated from the rest of the Jewish communities by distance of borders, every Torah Scroll is exactly like every other community's Torah Scroll, except for Yemini Scrolls, and they differ by only 8 (eight) letters. Every difference reflects a regional dialect, but do not change the meaning of the passages in which the occur.
OTOH, there are so many variants among the scrolls of the books of the nt that there are thousands of variant readings, many change the meanings of the texts, and some of these are significant.

Whenever you refute something in the NT, you simply use older sacred texts as your evidence. To me, saying this old dead guy was wrong because it doesn't mesh with what this older dead guy said doesn't really make sense.

A good question.
The nt story claims to be based upon the older writings. If that were true, it would be prudent to examine those older documents, to see if they actually say what they are claimed to say, so that we can determine if the nt actually IS based on the older documents.
Iff the nt actuually reflects on a correct understanding of the older documents, then all's well and good. But if the nt reflects a perverted text, then the nt is also necessarily perverted. In carpentry, you measuure twice, cut once. If you cut a board wrong, or an angle on a board, then the project gets progressively more off-kilter. If the nt uses incorrect renderings of the Hebrew Scriptures (such as the Septuagint is), then it is only the nt, not the Hebrew Scriptures, that is going wrong.

Why do you believe the writers of the OT had some link with a god, and yet at the same time are able to see the folly inherent in the NT?

National Revelation. An ENTIRE NATION of people heard God speak at Sinai. No other religion has that kind of rock-solid foundation. All others claim one guy heard from or spoke to God. If you want to believe him, that's on you.

What other independent evidence is there to support anything in the ancient Hebrew texts, other than more ancient Hebrew texts?

Archeology.

You stated that the Jesus of the NT was really alive a hundred years before the NT said he was. Okay, if this person seems to have been mentioned in older texts, then I can accept that. But then you also said that you believe he did perform miracles. I'm also assuming that you believe stories such as Moses splitting the sea are true. You seem like a rational person, so what causes you to accept these stories as true, if it is not mere faith?

Miracles happen, and so they (by themselves) prove nothing other than that miracles happen, and therefore there IS a God. They do NOT show WHO that God is.

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."
- Ayn Rand


I have "Anthem," "Atlas Shrugged," "Fountainhead," and "The Virtue of Selfishness." I've read them twice, twice, once, and a half a time. The phylosophy is REAL dry, but she could tell a story.
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Suggested Reading list:
"You Take jesus, I'll Take God" - Sam Levine
"The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" - Robert Heinlein
"Hope" - Aaron Zelman & L. Neil Smith
"The Probability Broach" - L. Neil Smith
"Wizard's First Rule" - Terry Goodkind (Check out the rest of the series, too.)
"The Constitution of the United States" - input from various American Statesmen (Read that as "Old, wealthy white men, now dead, who were often seen to be wearing wigs and hose in public.")

Ragnar

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Ancient Jewish texts vs. ancient Christian texts
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2005, 08:54:01 AM »

Quote from: nojc4me
Ragnar said:
Why do you believe the writers of the OT had some link with a god, and yet at the same time are able to see the folly inherent in the NT?

National Revelation. An ENTIRE NATION of people heard God speak at Sinai. No other religion has that kind of rock-solid foundation. All others claim one guy heard from or spoke to God. If you want to believe him, that's on you.


Well, your "entire nation" doesn't really amount to much more. All I see is a group of people trying to make sense of the world around them, and perhaps codify a system of rules to live by. The result was those first texts. I see no logical reason to believe a group of people anymore than an individual.

Quote from: nojc4me
Ragnar said:
What other independent evidence is there to support anything in the ancient Hebrew texts, other than more ancient Hebrew texts?

Archeology.


What, specifically? Some scrolls and a splinter from a boat? Evidence that buildings written about actually existed? You're gonna have to do better than that to get me to believe in an omnipotent, omniscient deity.

Quote from: nojc4me

Miracles happen, and so they (by themselves) prove nothing other than that miracles happen, and therefore there IS a God. They do NOT show WHO that God is.


Okay, again, you're gonna have to support the statement "Miracles happen" with something.

Quote from: nojc4me
Ragnar said:
"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."
- Ayn Rand


I have "Anthem," "Atlas Shrugged," "Fountainhead," and "The Virtue of Selfishness." I've read them twice, twice, once, and a half a time. The phylosophy is REAL dry, but she could tell a story.


Heh, you beat me. I only have Atlas Shrugged. I read it once completely, and have since gone back over significant portions of it. Fountain and Anthem I've read once, and I was halfway through Virtue when it mysteriously disappeared. (I think my mom "accidentally" misplaced it because I was extolling its, er, virtues.) Yes, it was dry, and I thought the points I got to were covered sufficiently well in the novels, so I have not yet bought another copy.
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[batman

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."  
- Ayn Rand

"Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself makes you fearless."
- Lao Tzu

"Your side hates our side because you think we think you're stupid. Our side hates your side because we think you're stupid."
- Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip

Zagzagel

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Ancient Jewish texts vs. ancient Christian texts
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2005, 09:53:42 PM »

I read just recently a writing on a certian site (I forgot to bookmark it - argh!  but am confident that I can locate it again) that the reason that people come against the Messiah/Christ of the NT is because they don't realize that Jesus didn't always quote from the strict Hebrew texts that the Jewish people use today.

What I mean is that people criticize Jesus for his sayings because they cannot find it in Torah or other Hebrew accepted writings.  Or the sayings may sound the same but not word for word as one would expect (I wonder if that is a  logical argument?)  Anyways, the author of that particular site points out that Jesus made at least 35 quotes from other sources than the accepted Hebrew scriptures.

I guess this author was making non-sense of the idea that just because Jesus quotes are not found where one would expect it, then this makes the NT writings unworthy and unacceptaable and a lie?

Just thought to drop in a thought. :D
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