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Christian Anti-Semitism
« on: February 01, 2006, 09:24:55 PM »

ANTI-SEMITISM IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
                            By Shmuel Golding
 
      In recent years, many books have been written on the subject of anti-Semitism.  Most of those books blame the church for its hostile teachings which encouraged ignorant devotees to harass, and even to violently assault Jews in the name of Christ and his church.  Many Christian writers have openly acknowledged this fact and have called upon the church to make amends.
      Yet, apologise as they may, none of them attack the root cause of Christian anti-Semitism, which in my opinion lies in the New Testament itself.  One writer from the gentile camp who dares admit to this in his book "The Misery of Christianity", is a former pastor by the name of Joachim Kahl.  A writer from the Jewish side, Jules Isaac wrote a book entitled 'Jesus et Israel', in which he maintained that anti-Semitism begins with the New Testament . Apart from two voices, very few have been bold enough to place the blame where it belongs.
      Father Gregory Baum states that when he read Isaac's book it shattered him, and so he set about on a task to counter-refute such claims, yet in the introduction he has to admit that at face value certain passages of the New Testament do appear to be anti-Semitic but says Fr.Baum (who incidentally is a Jew himself who converted to Christianity) all such verses can be explained.
      Maybe they can be explained, the scriptures can be stretched this way and that way to make them say almost anything, but my bone of contention is that whilst those statements remain in print in the form of a holy book, men will use them to feed their hatred and the Jew will continue to suffer.  Let history itself be our witness, and let history be the judge as to whether or not the roots of Christian anti-Semitism lie within the New Testament.
      It will not be hard to prove that the roots of anti-Semitism lie in the New Testament and that its fruits have been plucked and digested by Christians from the earliest times until the present day.
      Bible-intoxicated Christians through the ages have thrown in the teeth of the Jews the demonic charges of "Christ-killers" and have fanned the flames of Jew-hatred using the New Testament for their justification.
      There are numerous verses found in the New Testament which have caused the blood of countless Jews to be shed throughout history.  We will examine these verses and compare them with words said, and deeds committed against Jews by the church and its leaders.

      These anti-Semitic statements were and still are the principal cause of all persecutions, oppressions and pogroms in which Jews have suffered.  These anti-Semitic accounts in the New Testament have taught mankind to hate the Jew.  As long as the New Testament continues in print (at least in its present form) the Jew will be hated.  Here are but a few verses from where Christianity borrowed its anti-semitic sentiments.
      "The children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."(Matt 8.12)
      "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!  Behold your house is left unto you desolate."
      (Matt 23.37,38)
      Then answered all the people (Jews) and said, "His blood be on us and on our children"
      (Matt 27:25). * (See note on this verse)
      "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you to councils, and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten"(Mark 13.9)
      "He that believeth not shall be d--ned"(Mark 16.16)
      "Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.  When he speaks a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar and the father of it.  And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.  Which of you convinceth me of sin?  And I say the truth, why do you not believe me?  He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God" (John 8.43-47)
      "Stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so you do.  Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers" (Acts 7.51-53)
      "It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing you put it from you and judge yourself unworthy of everlasting life, we turn to the Gentiles"
      (Acts 13.45-51)
      "For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake ... wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men, that turn from the truth".(Titus 1.10-14).
      "The Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God and are contrary to all men: forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost".(l Thess 2.14-16)
      "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?  He is an antichrist, that denieth the father and the son.  Whoever denieth the son, the same hath not the father"(l John 2.22,23)
      "I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan .." (Rev 2.9,10)
      "Behold I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews and are not but do lie; behold I will make them to come and worship before thy feet.." (Rev 3.9)
      These vicious and treacherous New Testament verses, have given the impression that the Jews in the time of Jesus were degenerate and cruel and that they are a deicide race.  They have been spread by the church for the last two millenia, and have not been rooted out of Christian thinking to the present day.  Even those fundamentalist lovers of Israel, only love the Jews in order to save them from the punishment awaiting them for not having accepted Jesus.  They, as much, if not more than any other Christian today, believe that the Jew is guilty of deicide and that his Judaism is an old worn out rag which they wish to replace with their New Testament.
      Moses Bazes, author of "Jesus the Jew, the Historical Jesus", after examining the anti-semitic statements in the New Testament writes:
      "I believe that because of the anti-Jewish narratives of the New Testament, the Jews were hounded from one country to another, denied to live as human beings, denied to work as other people worked, denied to play as others played, were in no country at peace, in no era at peace and finally persecuted and massacred.  This was all because of the Christian bigotry and hatred in the name of Jesus.  Obviously it cannot be possible to regard Jesus as none other than the scourge of God for the Jews.  The tragic existence of the Jews during 1900 years in the Diaspora, the hatred they experienced, the pogroms, persecutions, murders and the destructions they suffered, must be mainly attributed to anti-Jewish statements in the New Testament.  Christianity introduced contempt for the Jew and is thus responsible for what happened in the Second World War at the Dachau Concentration camp in Germany and at the Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland.  What was started at the Church Council at Nicea in 325 CE was duly completed in the concentration camps and crematories of Christian Germany where six million Jews perished".

      We will now examine the words of some Christian 'saints' and leaders and notice how their anti-Jewish expressions are based on New Testament verses listed earlier in this article.
      Origen: "Their rejection of Jesus has resulted in their present calamity and exile.  We say with confidence that they will never be restored to their former condition.  For they have committed a crime of the most unhallowed kind, in conspiring against the saviour".
      St.  Gregory: " Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies of God, haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their fathers' faith, advocates of the devil, brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, leaven of the Pharisees, congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, stoners and haters of goodness".
      St. Jerome: "...serpents, haters of all men, their image is Judas ... their psalms and prayers are the braying of donkeys.."
      St.  John Chrysostom: "I know that many people hold a high regard for the Jews and consider their way of life worthy of respect at the present time... This is why I am hurrying to pull up this fatal notion by the roots ... A place where a whore stands on display is a whorehouse.  What is more, the synagogue is not only a whorehouse and a theater; it is also a den of thieves and a haunt of wild animals ... not the cave of a wild animal merely, but of an unclean wild animal ... When animals are unfit for work, they are marked for slaughter, and this is the very thing which the Jews have experienced.  By making themselves unfit for work, they have become ready for slaughter.  This is why Christ said: "ask for my enemies, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them and slay them before me' (Luke 19.27)".
      St.  Augustine: "Judaism is a corruption.  Indeed Judas is the image of the Jewish people. Their understanding of the Scriptures is carnal.  They bear the guilt for the death of the saviour, for through their fathers they have killed the Christ".
      St.  Thomas Aquinas: "It would be licit to hold Jews, because of the crimes, in perpetual servitude, and therefore the princes may regard the possessions of Jews as belonging to the State".
      The teachings of Martin Luther:
      "Know, 0 adored Christ, and make no mistake, that aside from the Devil, you have no enemy more venomous, more desperate, more bitter, than a true Jew who truly seeks to be a Jew... a Jew, a Jewish heart, are hard as wood, as stone, as iron, as the Devil himself.  In short, they are children of the Devil, condemned to the flames of hell".
      "O Lord, I am too feeble to mock such devils.  I would do so, but they are much stronger than I in raillery, and they have a God who is a past master in this art; He is called the devil and the wicked spirit.. They have transformed God into the devil, or rather into a servant of the Devil, accomplishing all the evil the Devil desires, corrupting unhappy souls , and raging against himself: in short, the Jews are worse than the devils".
      "What then shall we Christians do with this d--ned, rejected race of Jews?  First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it.  And this ought to be done for the honour of God and of Christianity, in order that God may see that we are true Christians.  Secondly, their homes should be likewise broken down and destroyed.  Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayerbooks and talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught.  Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threats of death to teach anymore."
      "Now whoever wishes to accept venomous serpents, desperate enemies of the lord, and to honor them, to let himself be robbed, pillaged, corrupted and cursed by them, need only turn to the Jews.  If this is not enough for him, he can do more: crawl up into their...... and worship the sanctuary, so as to glorify himself afterwards for having been merciful, for having fortified the Devil and his children, in order to blaspheme our beloved lord and the precious blood that has redeemed us.  He will then be a perfect Christian, filled with works of mercy, for which Christ will reward him on the-day of judgment with the eternal fire of hell (where he will roast together with the Jews)".
      "In truth, the Jews, being foreigners, should possess nothing, and what they do possess should be ours".
      "..Cursed goy that I am, I cannot understand how they manage to be so skillful, unless I think that when Judas Iscariot hanged himself, his guts burst and emptied.  Perhaps the Jews sent their servants with plates of silver and pots of gold to gather up Judas' piss with the other treasures, and then they ate and drank his offal, and thereby acquired eyes so piercing that they discover in the scriptures commentaries that neither Matthew nor Isaiah himself found there, not to mention the rest of us cursed goyim.."
      "If I find a Jew to baptize, I shall lead him to the Elbe bridge, hang a stone around his neck, and push him into the water, baptizing him with the name of Avraham!.. I cannot convert the Jews.  Our lord Christ did not succeed in doing so; but I can close their mouths so that there will be nothing for them to do but to lie upon the ground".
      "I hope I shall never be so stupid as to be circumcised; I would rather cut off the left breast of my Catherine and of all women."
      "If we are to remain unsullied by the blasphemy of the Jews and not wish to take part in it, we must be separated from them and they must be driven out of their country".

      These anti-semitic words uttered by popes, priests, pastors and laymen, were put into action by unruly Christian mobs and later by Hitler's followers.
      Adolf Hitler: "I believe that I am today acting according to the purposes of the Almighty Creator . In resisting the Jew, I am fighting the Lord's battle."

      Now let us apply these sayings to deeds committed by Christians who took their New Testament literally.
      The crusader's sword found its justification in the words of Matt 10.34, "I have not come to bring peace on earth but a sword".  The Inquisitor's fire found its justification in the words of John 15.6, "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned".  The cancellation of debts owed to Jews, found its justification in the parable recorded in Luke 16 . The first blood libel was made by Jesus himself where in Matt 23.35, he states "that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar".

      Rev William Hull
      At the time of the World Pentecostal Conference in Jerusalem in 1961, Hull, a Canadian Missionary, wrote two articles entitled "Christian Analysis of Current Events in Israel" for Christian News from Israel (published by the Ministry of Religious Affairs).  In these he analysed political, cultural and social developments in the country in the light of his unique method of interpretations.  He also discussed the significance of the Eichmann Trial, which was then being held in Jerusalem.  That subject had special interest for him, since at his request he had been appointed by the authorities as Eichmann's confessor.
      Hull visited Eichmann in his cell 14 times, and tried to convert him to a belief in Jesus as the savior, so that he might atone for his actions.  However, Hull's efforts proved fruitless.  Later he wrote a book describing those conversations with Eichmann, but the content of the talks and certain statements made by Hull subsequent to those talks, evoked a negative reaction in various Jewish circles.  Criticism was directed mainly at the extreme Fundamentalist position, in accordance with which Hull had promised Eichmann that God would forgive his sins if in a written statement he would declare his acceptance of Christ.  In Canada, Hull told the correspondent of a Toronto newspaper that the six million Jewish victims of the Nazis were doomed to perish in hell, and would not enter paradise, because they had not accepted the belief in Christ.  Moreover, he said, Eichmann's sins were not as great as those of the average man who denied Jesus as the redeemer. (From 'American Fundamentalism and Israel' by Yona Malachy)

      German Christians under Hitler
      Paul Althaus, a Lutheran theologian of renown in Germany, warmly greeted the rise of Hitler. He wrote that, "The Protestant churches have greeted the political turning point as a gift and miracle of God".. ('Die deutsche Stunde der Kirche', p.5)
      Many times Althaus explained to Christians his preference for the Third Reich over the former Weimar Republic. "We Christians know," he stated, "that we are bound by God's will to the promotion of National Socialism, so that all members of the people will be ready for service and sacrifice.".
      ('Kirche and Staat', p. 29)
      In a document signed by many Christian theologians it was stated, "We as believing Christians thank God our Father that he has given to our people in its time of need the Fuhrer as a pious and faithful sovereign, and that he wants to prepare for us in the National Socialist system of government, good rule, a government with discipline and honor. Accordingly, we know that we are responsible before God to assist the work of the Fuhrer in our calling and in our station in life.". ('Ansbacher Ratschlag', p. 145)
      Another high ranking Christian theologian, Leutheuser, believed that the Holy Spirit moves where it chooses, and stated that, "more spirit of religion has come to Germans through Hitler, than through many of the churches." .
      (Julius Leutheuser. 'Die deutsche Christusgemeinde', p. 18,19)  This same Christian leader asserts that "Germany has been given a mission from God. The leader and prophet is Adolf Hitler." (SiegfriedLeffer. 'Christus im
      Drittem Reich der Deutschen', p. 13-18)
      The Vatican under Pope Pius XII made a Concordat of collaboration with National Socialism. Hitler's portrait was placed on all walls of Catholic churches and Sunday schools. Church bells were rang at every Nazi victory, including the arrest and transportation of the last Jew from every town in Germany. The Roman Catholic Church never protested against Hitler's barbarism including the massacre of a million and a half Jewish children..
      (Dictionary of antisemitism, p. 43)
      At a Church conference, Hitler affirmed that the Catholic Church has always regarded Jews as evildoers and had banished them into ghettos. He (Hitler) is only doing what the Church had been doing for fifteen hundred years.. (ibid, p. 79)
      In fact the Catholic youth organisation of Germany was combined with the Hitler youth following the signing of the Concordat of Collaboration sponsored by Msgr. Pacelli later to become Pope Pius XII. Together they sang the Horstwessel Lied in the church vestries "Wenn das Judenblut vom Messer spritzed".. ('When Jewish blood runs off the dagger', ibid, p. 109)
      In a speech to Polish Catholics, Hitler declared: "I as a German Catholic, ask only what is permitted to Polish Catholics. To be antisemitic is not to be un-Catholic. The Church used very weapon against the Jews, even the Inquisition. Christ himself was a pioneer in the fight against Judaism." (ibid, p. 146)
      An interesting quotation appears in the Encyclopedia Britannica under 'German Christians':
      "Protestants who attempted to subordinate church policy to the political exigencies of Nazi Germany. The German Christians' Faith Movement, organized in 1932, was nationalistic and so anti-Semitic that extremists wished to repudiate the Old Testament and the Pauline Letters because of their Jewish authorship. In July 1933 the state territorial churches merged to form the German Evangelical Church, and in September the German Christian candidate, Ludwig Muller, became Reichsbishop. Muller's efforts to make the church an instrument of Nazi policy were resisted by the Confessing Church, under the leadership of Martin Niemoller. After World War II the German Christian Church party was banned."

      Are present day Christian attitudes towards the Jews any better?  Liberals say they are, and they continue to call for tolerance and understanding.  But the fundamentalists are hindering and harming the progress that has been made in Christian-Jewish relationships.  By their desire to convert the Jew, they prove themselves to be the most antisemitic of all Christian groups, for the whole idea of conversion is antisemitic. Christian missionary love for the Jew is a kind of hatred.  It loves the Jew, yet hates him for being what he is.  It sees him as blind and in need of being changed into a believer.  When missionary efforts failed, or are foiled, the love for the Jew quickly turns to hatred and ontempt. We are not deceived by the 'new Christians' of today's hand-clapping fundamentalists.  They teach the same antisemitic doctrines as the church of yesteryear.  Their tactics are different but we know that the message is the same.  Any Jew who can pay homage to the New Testament or allow himself to believe in it, is, in my opinion in the same category as a Jew who tries to justify Hitler's Mein Kampf or, as one who covers up for the deeds of the Nazis. More Jews have been affected, hurt or killed, in the name of Christ and his church during the last two thousand years than those massacred by the Nazis.  Yet there are Jews, who being so alienated from their own people, have overlooked this fact and have joined themselves to the church with its built-in anti-Semitism.

      * Note on Matt 27:25
      To imagine that this self curse and curse on their children was actually uttered by any group of Jews - is a violation of respect for the human intellect and a travesty.  Because of the depth and spread of this Christian belief - and the evil it has wrought - it is most necessary to refute and discredit Matthew 27:25 - beyond any shadow of doubt..
      The Jewish child is the 'hero' of the Brith Milah (Circumcision), the Bar-Mitzvah - and nowadays the Bat-Mitzvah (Confirmation of male and female children as Subjects of the Commandment), the Passover Seder (Feast of Mazot), the Pidyon ha'Ben (Redemption of the First-born son)...
     There is scarcely a single religious rite of the Jew that is complete without the participation of the child.  An entire chapter of the Holy Scriptures, "Proverbs," is devoted to the proper upbringing of the Jewish child - its first seven chapters are addressed to "My Son".  Even after the Jew's passing from his life the connection between parent and child is perpetuated through the son's recital of the Kaddish prayer in memory of the departed parent.  Thus, from birth to after death in a never-ending cycle, the Jew and his child are inseparable.  It has always been so since Judaism began and it will always be so...
     As for the "Blood curse" (Matt 27:25), oceans of ink have been expended by bible scholars Christian and Jewish - starting two centuries ago, to demonstrate that this self-curse and curse on the children of Israel could never have been uttered. despite this, rivers of Jewish blood have been spilled by a blind and unbending fanaticism that persisted, and still persists, in perpetuating the fiction that the self-curse was actually voiced... Since the Catholic church and fundamentalist Protestant sects consider every word in the New Testament to be the "Word of God," Matt 27:25 is a dogma of the church.
     They care because they know that Adolf Hitler's mendacious claim: "I believe that I am today acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator; by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord"... has Matt 27:25 at its base. (A.  Hitler, MEIN KAMPF, pg. 65; cf.  E.H. Flannery, op. cit. pg. 2 1 0).
     Harenberg continues: "It was Rudolf Bultmann who stated in 1921, with the help of the form critical method which he had developed, that this curse was never spoken" (c.f R. Bultrnann,
     HISTORY OF THE SYNOPTIC TRADITION, Harper, 1963, pg. 282).
     The French historian Charles Guignebert wrote in 1935 about Matt 27:25 directly, and of other passages of the same ilk in the New Testament, as follows: "Few of the sayings of the Gospels have done more harm than these, and yet they are only the invention of a redactor".
     (C. Guignebert, JESUS, op. cit., pg. 470) Hitler used Jesus' name quite glibly to justify his unspeakable crimes.
     It was the evangelist Matthew, not a redactor, who "invented" verse 27:25, but no matter, the damage is the same regardless of who the 'inventor' really was.  The pity of it is that all antiSemitic monsters use (and have used) the "poison" that is found in Christianity's Holy Book as propaganda to further their nefarious ends.  Hitler was but one of many.

     A million of the Jewish victims of the Holocaust were children.

So, we have Catholics and Protestants. That leaves ouut the Mormons. The following rectifies that oversight.

Brigham Young: President of the Mormon Church (Latter-day Saints) (1801-1877) in speaking of the Jews "...You may break their iron bands, and set them at liberty, and but few of them will receive the Gospel. Why is this? ... the curse of the Almighty is upon them, and upon their posterity until they have wrought out their salvation by suffering; What shall we do with those who are dishonest? Let them remain with the good until the time comes to cast them away, and gather out the good. The Messiah came through them [the Jews], and they killed him; Young goes on to state "...I would rather undertake to convert five thousand [American Indians], than to convert one of those poor miserable creatures whose fathers killed the Savior, and who say, "Amen to the deed," to this day. Yea, I would rather undertake to convert the devil himself, if it were possible.

Brigham Young  once stated, "What man or woman on the earth ...can say truthfully that I ever gave a wrong word of counsel, or a word of advice that could not be sanctioned by the heavens?

Book of Mormon
Anti-Semitism at its worst - read for yourself!
                  Purpose of the "book of mormon"--from it's title page:
                 "the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD"

                 The book of mormon view of Jews

                1 Nephi 1:19
                And it came to pass that the Jews did mock him because of the things which he testified of them; for he truly testified of their wickedness and their abominations;

                1 Nephi 1:20
                And when the Jews heard these things they were angry with him; yea, even as with the prophets of old, whom they had cast out, and stoned, and slain; and they also sought his life, that they might take it away.

                1 Nephi 2:13
                ...they were like unto the Jews who were at Jerusalem, who sought to take away the life of my father.

                1 Nephi 4:36
                ...that the Jews might not know concerning our flight into the wilderness, lest they should pursue us and destroy us.

                1 Nephi 10: 11
                ...concerning the dwindling of the Jews in unbelief. And after they had slain the Messiah, who should come, ...
 
                1 Nephi 15: 17
                ...he shall be rejected of the Jews, or of the house of Israel

                1 Nephi 17:44
                ... the Jews also sought to take away his life; yea, and ye also have sought to take away his life; wherefore, ye are murderers in your hearts and ye are like unto them.

                ** 2 Nephi 10:3
                Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ-for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name-should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him-for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.

                2 Nephi 25:2
                ...concerning the manner of the Jews; for their works were works of darkness, and their doings were doings of abominations.

                2 Nephi 25:9
                And as one generation hath been destroyed among the Jews because of iniquity, even so have they been destroyed from generation to generation according to their iniquities; and never hath any of them been destroyed save it were foretold them by the prophets of the Lord.

                2 Nephi 25:18
                ... there is save one Messiah spoken of by the prophets, and that Messiah is he who should be rejected of the Jews.

                2 Nephi 30:2
                ...as many of the Gentiles as will repent are the covenant people of the Lord; and as many of the Jews as will not repent shall be cast off; for the Lord covenanteth with none save it be with them that repent and believe in his Son...

                2 Nephi 30:7
                And it shall come to pass that the Jews which are scattered also shall begin to believe in Christ; and they shall begin to gather in upon the face of the land; and as many as shall believe in Christ shall also become a delightsome people.

                Jacob 4: 14
                But behold, the Jews were a stiffnecked people; and they despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall; for God hath taken away his plainness from them, and delivered unto them many things which they cannot understand, because they desired it. And because they desired it God hath done it, that they may stumble.

                Jacob 4:15
                And now I, Jacob, am led on by the Spirit unto prophesying; for I perceive by the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that by the stumbling of the Jews they will reject the stone upon which they might build and have safe foundation.

                Jacob 4:16
                But behold, according to the scriptures, this stone shall become the great, and the last, and the only sure foundation, upon which the Jews can build.

                3 Nephi 19:35
                And it came to pass that when Jesus had made an end of praying he came again to the disciples, and said unto them: So great faith have I never seen among all the Jews; wherefore I could not show unto them so great miracle, because of their unbelief.

                4 Nephi 1:31
                ... the people did harden their hearts, and did seek to kill them, even as the Jews at Jerusalem sought to kill Jesus, according to his word.

                Mormon 7:5
                Know ye that ye must come to the knowledge of your fathers...and believe in Jesus Christ, that he is the Son of God, and that he was slain by the Jews,

                Mormon Doctrine & Covenants

                D&C 74:6
                That their children might remain without circumcision; and that the tradition might be done away, which saith that little children are unholy; for it was had among the Jews;

                ** Mormons charge themselves to preach to the gentiles then the Jews **

                D&C 107:33
                ...first unto the Gentiles and secondly unto the Jews.

                D&C 107:34
                ... first unto the Gentiles and then to the Jews;

                D&C 107:35
                ...first unto the Gentiles and then unto the Jews.

                D&C 107:97
                ...unto the Gentiles first and also unto the Jews.

                D&C 133:8
                ... first upon the Gentiles, and then upon the Jews.
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Suggested Reading list:
"You Take jesus, I'll Take God" - Sam Levine
"The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" - Robert Heinlein
"Hope" - Aaron Zelman & L. Neil Smith
"The Probability Broach" - L. Neil Smith
"Wizard's First Rule" - Terry Goodkind (Check out the rest of the series, too.)
"The Constitution of the United States" - input from various American Statesmen (Read that as "Old, wealthy white men, now dead, who were often seen to be wearing wigs and hose in public.")

Tony N

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Re: Christian Anti-Semitism
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2006, 11:05:00 PM »

NJC, you even talking about anti-semitism is the pot calling the kettle black.

Good grief, have you no shame?
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)


Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).


Well? Are we?

IronRod

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Christian Anti-Semitism
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2006, 11:22:18 PM »

Quote
NJC, you even talking about anti-semitism is the pot calling the kettle black.

Good grief, have you no shame?


NJC, I agree with Tony.

Just so you will know all but 6 of those Book of Mormon/Doctrine and Covenants verses you quoted were written/said by a Jew born and raised in the area around Jerusalem.
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Moroni 10:4  And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5  And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Tony N

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Christian Anti-Semitism
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2006, 08:03:05 AM »

And another point, njc, if Paul was anti-semitic or other writers of the NT, then all the prophets (including Moses) were anti-semitic for they were always denouncing the Jews for their wickedness in their day.
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)


Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).


Well? Are we?

nojc4me

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Christian Anti-Semitism
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2006, 03:03:48 PM »

I'm not going to argue the point that christians are anti-Semitic. I didn't say they are. Or, I didn't intend that it should be understood as what I was saying. Perhaps I should have titled this thread "Christianity's anti-Semitism," but I was tired and pressed for time at the time I opened the topic.
I said that the n.t. and the book of Mormon are anti-Semitic, and that SOME christians (who were named, including the oldest church fathers, and even certain authors of the n.t.'s "sacred books") are/were anti-Semitic.
Some christians are not anti-Semitic.

... all but 6 of those Book of Mormon/Doctrine and Covenants verses you quoted were written/said by a Jew born and raised in the area around Jerusalem.

In point of fact, NONE of the words quoted from the Book of Mormon were said by a Jew; they are ALL the opinion of J. Smith (or whoever made up the religion), who pretended to be reading them from tablets the words of which no-one but he ever saw nor were capable of reading, while a friend/co-conspiritor * transcibed what Smith claimed was written thereon.

NJC, you even talking about anti-semitism is the pot calling the kettle black.

False. I'm not anti-Semitic.
But at least you admit that some christians are as black with the sin of anti-Semitism as is the bottom of a kettle.

And another point, njc, if Paul was anti-semitic or other writers of the NT, then all the prophets (including Moses) were anti-semitic for they were always denouncing the Jews for their wickedness in their day.

A) The propets were Jewish; Paul was not.
B) The Prophets were right; Paul was not.
To denounce a people for actual wrong-doing is called "correction"; to denounce a people for IMAGINED and FALSE wrong-doing is called "calumny," and to denounce a people for PAST wrong-doings that have already been repented of and are not being repeated, yet insisting the penitent one(s) deserve (further) punishments is called something but I can't think of the right word just now. You might say it's "victimization," or "living in the past" or "beating a dead horse." It's also against God's Will. He said plainly that sins repented of will no longer be remembered against a person.
When the target of those false/out-dated accusations is a Jew / are Jews, and the accuser is not Jewish, it's called "anti-Semitism."
Learn it.
Live by it.
Or lump it.

_____

* "co-conspiritor" is redundant. Those who conspire are conspirators. No "co-" is needed, but it has become the convention these days. Also, I do not know that Smith's (?) scribe was in on the fraud, which is why I allowed that he might be called "friend."
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Suggested Reading list:
"You Take jesus, I'll Take God" - Sam Levine
"The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" - Robert Heinlein
"Hope" - Aaron Zelman & L. Neil Smith
"The Probability Broach" - L. Neil Smith
"Wizard's First Rule" - Terry Goodkind (Check out the rest of the series, too.)
"The Constitution of the United States" - input from various American Statesmen (Read that as "Old, wealthy white men, now dead, who were often seen to be wearing wigs and hose in public.")

valerie

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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2006, 03:40:33 PM »

All I can say...the truth hurts!  That goes for all unrepentant people!  But you're right about their being anti-semitism.  You believe the OT.  Didn't God often call his people, Israel, to repentance?  Is God anti-semetic?  How were God's words conveyed?  Through prophets, thus were they too anti-semetic?  Based on your profound begining post the OT is as well anti-semetic.
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valerie

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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2006, 03:58:01 PM »

As an added note, the Bible and BofM aren't too kind to the Gentiles either.

3 Ne. 30:
Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.

Rom. 3:
 9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
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Zagzagel

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Christian Anti-Semitism
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2006, 05:12:47 PM »

Quote
When the target of those false/out-dated accusations is a Jew / are Jews, and the accuser is not Jewish, it's called "anti-Semitism."
Learn it.
Live by it.
Or lump it.


I don't really want to address the lump of this thread so far, but this part of Nojc's words is what I am interested in.

Want to discuss this?

G.
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shalom

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« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2006, 07:13:45 PM »

Quote from: geegee
Quote
When the target of those false/out-dated accusations is a Jew / are Jews, and the accuser is not Jewish, it's called "anti-Semitism."
Learn it.
Live by it.
Or lump it.


I don't really want to address the lump of this thread so far, but this part of Nojc's words is what I am interested in.

Want to discuss this?

G.


My take on Religious Anti-Semitism is very simple:

Those who believe they have the right  to negate, superceed or replace  the Covenant G-d established with Israel should be considered "anti-semitic".

Shalom
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Tony N

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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2006, 10:10:43 PM »

Tony wrote:
NJC, you even talking about anti-semitism is the pot calling the kettle black.

njc replied:
False. I'm not anti-Semitic.

Tony's reply:
Dear dodo, I wasn't saying YOU were anti-Semitic! You are anti-Christian and mock our Lord and Saviour. You, bringing up a point that Christians are anti-Semitic is the kettle calling the pot black for your are a hypocrite if there ever was one for you are anti-christian. Get it? How can you accuse Christians of saying things against Jews when you say things against Christians?

njc wrote:
But at least you admit that some christians are as black with the sin of anti-Semitism as is the bottom of a kettle.

Tony's reply:
You sure are a dense little twit, aren't you. You, njc are the kettle and you are calling the pot (Christians) black, even though you are just as black as they by how you treat Christians.

Tony wrote:
And another point, njc, if Paul was anti-semitic or other writers of the NT, then all the prophets (including Moses) were anti-semitic for they were always denouncing the Jews for their wickedness in their day.

njc replied:
A) The propets were Jewish; Paul was not.

Tony's reply:
Prove it.

B) The Prophets were right; Paul was not.

Tony's reply:
Prove it.

To denounce a people for actual wrong-doing is called "correction"; to denounce a people for IMAGINED and FALSE wrong-doing is called "calumny,"

Tonys reply:
How did Paul or any of the NT writers calumniate the Jews?
Hopefully you will learn what it means for you to be a hypocrite.
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)


Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).


Well? Are we?

IronRod

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Christian Anti-Semitism
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2006, 08:42:34 PM »

NoJC4me said:

Quote
In point of fact, NONE of the words quoted from the Book of Mormon were said by a Jew;  


And just where would you be getting this point of fact from.?
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Moroni 10:4  And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5  And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Cook

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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2006, 10:16:14 AM »

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shalom

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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2006, 01:38:42 PM »

Quote from: Cook
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Cook

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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2006, 02:42:44 PM »

Shalom,


Quote
I respect your thought, but hold fast to the notion that Jews are defined by the covenant.


I agree with you here.  I think a Jew is best determined by his faith. However the lines are bleared by all parties.  I have many questions and thoughts I'd like to share. I would love to talk about this more after shabbat. . I am in a hurry. Lots to do and little time.

Quote
As for our religions not being compatible - I totally agree. But only when one tries to force its agenda, or scoff at another is there generally conflict. The key is mutual respect and giving the other person full permission and support to be what G-d has called them to be.


I know that the majority of the violence has been on the part of Christians. However it is worth discussing in greater detail later. Also I think it is fair to look at how it all began.

Claiming someone else started it - never justifies violence.

Again, later I would love to add more to this. I wish all were as open to mutual respect as you are. However I know some Christians are not and you know some Jews are not either.  

Anyway  - talking is great and openess, even if it appears to be offensive, can lead to better understanding and hopefully greater respect towards each other.

Have a wonderful shabbat.
cook
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Cook

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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2006, 03:01:41 PM »

Shalom,


I'd like to add one more thing to my post above then I'm really gone.

Quote

The people of Israel (usually called the collective title "Jews") were first defined, and continue to be defined by the covenant made at Sinai. Take away (deny, supercede) the convent and you eliminate Israel (Jews). We are not a race, nor necessarily a bloodline.


Your explanation above has helped me a lot. Now I know why it is so offensive to you for someone to say the Sinai covenant has been replaced or "fulfilled".  I did not see it that way before. Nor have I heard it explained that way before.

Let me ask you to consider now the Christian point of view. Christians are defined by our covenant with Jesus(Christ). Like you, we are not a race. So likewise to take away (deny or supercede) the covenant we believe in - you eliminate Christians.

I know this sounds like a childish game, but truly it is not. I only hope to be able to understand you and have you understand us.

With both points above what do you feel is the best solution?  What solution do you think Orthodox Judaism will accept. I say Orthodox because they are the recognized religious authority in Israel.



cook
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IronRod

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« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2006, 02:21:18 PM »

Shalom said:
Quote
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Moroni 10:4  And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5  And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

shalom

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« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2006, 07:55:47 PM »

Quote from: IronRod

Hi Shalom this thread has had a wonderful spirit with it.


It has been a blessing to be part of this discussion - and the other thread too!

Quote
You have said some things that have given me questions. When you said
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shalom

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« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2006, 09:05:21 PM »

Quote from: Cook


Quote

I agree with you here.  I think a Jew is best determined by his faith.


Please consider that a Jew is not a Jew by  faith.  There were many who went to the their deaths during the Shoah, that had themselves, or  their families before them, converted to Christianity.  It is a fact that once one is part of the covenant (by any means), their descendants are forever "Jews". Even if there are some who hate the fact and try to hide it.   For me, I say if your  Jew - there is no way to stop being a Jew.  If you are observant, you benefit the people. If you are not, you hurt the people.  This may be a topic for later discussion, and I understand Christians have the notion of "the mystical body of christ".  I'm of the opinion that this idea is an adaptation of the Jewish concept of "Am Israel" (people of Israel")


Quote

I know that the majority of the violence has been on the part of Christians. However it is worth discussing in greater detail later. Also I think it is fair to look at how it all began. Claiming someone else started it - never justifies violence.


I believe the 1st Christian executed by Jews (aside from Jesus) was Stephen.   But I have difficultly believing the story as written in the Christian Scriptures.  Jews were denied the right to execute.  If they were not able to kill Jesus themselves;  a man who did more to disturb the status quo than Stephen, how could they possibly feel safe in executing this obscure, little known man named Stephen?  The account was written many years after the supposed event, and the majority of readers were Gentile. When I read it, I read "spin" more than historical fact.

As I mentioned earlier, my position is that "Replacement Theology" - the negation of the value of the Covenant of Sinai, is the foundation of anti-semitism.  Let me add that  I am not suggesting  that the Shoah was a direct result  of Replacement Theology. But I am saying that the notion of Replacement Theology helped numb Christian Europe to allow the Shoah to occur.

As for the origins of Replacement Theology: my research indicates that it  was first introduced by Justin Martyr (100-165 C.E)..  In his work "Dialogue with the Jew Trypho" he stated that the covenant belonged exculsivley to the Christians and that the Jew must come to G-d through Jesus.  Anyone who believed that would have considered the Jew as a "Pagan".  Even worse, because Jews brought Jesus into the world, yet rejected him, they were responsible for their act of rejection.

On a side note;  Sigmund Freud (an athiestic Jew) was  quoted as saying "Christians do not hate the Jews because they reject Jesus.  They hate the Jew because they brought Jesus into the world." (Paraphrased).  Freud's point is that Israel brought mankind the  challenge to be moral.  For the Christian, this challenge was personified by the Jew named Jesus.

I find that a facinating concept.

Thank you for a great dialog, and blessings to you and your family,

Shalom
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shalom

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« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2006, 10:13:42 PM »

Quote from: Cook


Quote


Shalom,
I'd like to add one more thing to my post above then I'm really gone.
Let me ask you to consider now the Christian point of view. Christians are defined by our covenant with Jesus(Christ). Like you, we are not a race. So likewise to take away (deny or supercede) the covenant we believe in - you eliminate Christians.



Understood - but I have questions:

The covenant G-d established with Abraham didn't superceed His covenant  with Noah.  Neither did the covenants made with Isaac and Jacob negate His previous covenants.  G-d said each was eternal - so how is it possible for  anyone to consider the covenant made at Sinai replaceable?

I certainly don't. But for those who do, there must be the concern that G-d  will change His mind again, and their relationship with Him will be one day considered null and void.

Shalom
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Cook

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« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2006, 02:37:48 PM »

Shalom,

Quote
The covenant G-d established with Abraham didn't supercede His covenant with Noah


Well the above isn't exactly accurate.
The covenant with Noah is not for Noah's descendants to determine for themselves. It is dictated to them from Israel and is contained in the Torah which is part of Israel's covenant and which was given to Israel. It is up to Israel to judge and decide what is obligatory for the Noachide. So, to say that one covenant does not supercede another is word play.

And I do call you out on one point. You mentioned the covenant established with Abraham. But you did not mention the Sinai covenant. As I'm sure we both are aware, Judaism absolutely holds it superior to all because through it were the others made known. And it is by that covenant that Israel expects the rest of the world to live. Because it is by that covenant that Israel received knowledge of the Noachian laws and permission to cause the world to live by them.

Israel sees it's responsibility being to cause the entire world to live according to the Sinai revelation. Be it as a Jew or as a Noachide.

So you see the reason for my being as offended by your religion as you are by mine.

According to Judaism, my religion is unnecessary and irrelevant. Not only does Judaism teach that it is irrelevant, but  also that those who believe as I do and call themselves Christians will have no part in the world to come. I know you tried to explain a possible loop hole with regards to "idolatry" but that is not the only issue with regards to my Christian beliefs. Christianity violates several Noachain laws, as I'm sure you know. If you do not know - I will be happy to list them and have you help me understand any error I may hold.

Quote
Neither did the covenants made with Isaac and Jacob negate His previous covenants

correct

Quote
G-d said each was eternal -  

That is a matter of interpretation.

Quote
so how is it possible for anyone to consider the covenant made at Sinai replaceable?

Let me give an example:  

Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life and that no man comes to the father but by him
 - so how can anyone consider that there is another way?

Now you should see the logic of your question from my point of view.

Quote
But for those who do, there must be the concern that G-d will change His mind again, and their relationship with Him will be one day considered null and void.


You have just quoted Paul almost word for word.

Quote
For me, I say if your Jew - there is no way to stop being a Jew.


Judaism as a whole does not agree. According to them one who converts is no longer a Jew. So it seems that even they see the covenant as conditional.

I would love to see a way for Judaism and Christianity to honestly get along. There is much distrust from both sides.

I enjoy our talking and look forward to your answers.

cook
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