Shalom,

I feel degraged because of the generalizations made about what Judaism supposedly teaches - and presented as fact from Gentile no less.

I am truly sorry. I understand that you do want a Gentile telling you these things.

Your words seem to be telling me what I believe - or should believe as a Jew. I don't believe you want my answers as much as debate and hostility. I'll leave you with your thoughts and ask that you seek a Jew who is stronger than I am. For me to continue down this path would be wrong.

Again, I did not mean to hurt you. I do want your answers. I am not hostile, though my writing may come across that way.

I am very sad and sorry that I have upset you.

When I say Judaism teaches something, it is because I have been told by other Jews that it does. I said in the beginning that you could feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I truly do not wish to be right. Maybe I should share with you where I am coming from.  

I am a Christian. I married a man who was born a Jew. His family is Jewish. Some are observant and some not. Some are Reform. Some Orthodox.

When I married him he was a Christian. The only one in his family. Later we both abandoned Christianity after a long study from Toa Singer.

I wanted to convert but I did not want to repeat my mistake of getting into a religion I did not fully understand. Now I know you NEVER fully understand - that is the beauty.

But, after I got over the shock of realizing that Jesus did not fit the picture of the messiah Jews were looking for, I began to ask detailed question about this messiah and  messianic era that they were looking for.

I found things that offended me greatly. I found things that frightened me, even more than they offended me. I asked many Jewish people if want I had found was indeed what they believed. No one has yet told me that I have misunderstood.

I don't like to say online every detail of what I am talking about - because it makes non-Jews mad. I don't want to cause anyone to hate Jewish people. But I will defend my faith as a Christian. This is why I do use generalities.

I have never been taught nor believe that what you suggest 'we both are aware of....". I would never say, nor even consider that because I am a Jew, I am under a better covenant than the rest of humanity through Noah. I do believe that Torah is a covenant of Peace. How G-d brings about peace with the Gentiles will be a wonderful experience for all - but I would never even suggest that Gentiles will have to live under Torah. In fact, I've been clear on stating that Torah is for the Jew.

Shalom,
I should not have accused you of knowing something without asking you.
 I am sorry.

I have been told Hassidic and Orthodox teach that it is the responsibility of Jews to inform Gentiles of their obligation to abide by the Noachide Laws. Is it your understanding that this is not true?  

I have also been told that according to the Noachide Laws as explained by Judaism, I am in violation, and therefore deserving of the death penalty?  

I hope you understand my concern.

Should I not ask these questions?

If you say it is not true and other Jews say it is - who am I to believe. How can I feel safe? Instead of you telling me that Jews do not believe such things, maybe you could explain that those who do believe it, are not the main stream. This would help. I do not know how main stream the idea is - I only know that it does exist. Maybe there are radical Jews as there are in every religion.

If you go away and refuse to talk - what am I to conclude?

Let me say this, there are MANY, MANY things that I LOVE about the Jewish people. And it has nothing to do with them being "God's chosen people" are any of the other typical stuff you hear.  I Love the Jewish culture. I love the way they express themselves. I love all the celebrations and the food.  I love that, the ones I know, are not materialistic. I always feel welcome around them. And I know that I am never judged by what I have or do not have , but only by how I treat them.  In my home I do my best to give my husband as much of his culture as I can. I enjoy it and my kids do also. It is not about religion to me - it is that I love the people.

I do have issues with the religion. I can't help that. That is why I talk about it.  Maybe it seems silly to separate the religion from the people. But I do. And that is why it upsets me to be labeled anti-Semitic because of my faith. I am not anti-Semitic. But I am anti-Judaism. There is a difference.

I hope that you will not just dismiss what I have said. But instead search in Judaism and see if what I have said is true. If not I hope you will share you insight and sources.

peace,
cook

Shalom,

Your post was kind.  My friends and family don't all share the same opinions. Surprise :) ! The consciences is that I shouldn't let what some in Judaism say bother me or frighten me.  Is it always smart to ignore hate? Religious hate can be and has been dangerous. Admittedly, Jews have not been at the head of such campaigns in the past- still I would like to think that it will never happen. The Noachides are my main concern.

As far as asking for help outside of my family. I was under the instruction of a Rabbi for years with regards to my conversion process.  Obviously I did not complete the process.  I may however reconsider - If I determine it would help me better understand Judaism and defend my faith against Noachides.

Noachides use Orthodox Judaism as an excuse for their nasty attitude towards Christians. Which has the effect of causing anger towards Orthodox Judaism. Admittedly it was a Noachide which brought some things to my attention.

I like Tovia also and have coresponded with him int he past, via email.

Tovia talks a lot about the fundamentalist getting people like "Jews for Jesus" to trick unsuspecting Jews into conversion to Christianity. (my paraphrase of his words - I think I understand him correctly).

Because of this activity Tovia sees the need to defend and protect his people by providing counter missionary information. I respect his effort and consider it noble given what he believes.

He does not target gentiles!

He will talk to them if they ask him.
In order to do his job he has to try to understand Christianity.

It appears from all the Noachide information available that Hassidic and Orthodox Judaism are behind the movements - or at least very supportive.  So when defending my people against the Noachide efforts to convert them and turn them from Christianity - I have to understand what they teach, where they get it from, and who are their recognized leaders (advisers).  Since the Noachide looks to the written and oral Torah for instruction and to a Rabbi for interpretation. I'm left with no choice but to address the Noachides source.

I never use what I think Judaism teaches to attempt to convert a Jew.  

Most Christians are not aware of the Noachide movements and are prime targets.  

My goals are not that different from Tovia Singer's.

He has a burden for his people and his religion. He doesn't want to see Jewish people abandon Judaism.  

I have the same burden for my people and my religion. I don't want to see Noachides out targeting Christians.  

I do not target Jewish people to convert them.
I will share my faith - if it comes up.  I do not avoid talking to them about my faith either. I just treat them as I would any person who is not a Christian.  I'm not pushy - but I can be aggressive if anyone chooses to be pushy with me or in my face about what I believe.  I know only two Jewish people who have been that way with me.  I bet you know more Christians who have been that way with you. I don't think I've had it too bad :)

Noachides are another issue all together.

P.S.  I also love Sephardic food. I have a few cook books with Sephardic dishes. And when Passover comes I show my husband the one that says I'm allowed to cook rice.

peace,
cook

Christian Anti-semitism versus Jewish/Noachide Anti-Christianism

Jews, Gentiles and the Noachian Laws:

Shalom -
my last post did not address you - nor does this one.
You can run from the discussion if you see fit. I does not matter to me.
My Jewish friends that choose to hate me did so because they were "offended that I had returned to Christianity".  It seems they need a class on religious tolerance.

For those of you following the discussion:
I wasn't aware that the encyclopedia of Judaism was written by "right wing" fanatics.
It does talk about the Noachian Laws and says outright that the penalty for breaking one law is death by decapitation.
Anyone with questions should look it up.

One of the most famous Rabbis in Judaism (Rambam) called Christians idolaters. He said this while living among Muslims. He chose to live among Muslims because he claim they were not Idolaters and he preferred them to Christians.

Christians seeking the truth about what is taught by Noachides and Judaism concerning Christianity should be alert and careful when asking questions.

Some Jewish people will tell you that Christianity is not Idolatry for a Gentile.
I asked an Orthodox Rabbi at AskMoses.com about this and he said that the confusion comes with regard to taking oaths. The details are not settled. But some Jewish authorities say the belief in the trinity is only poo-pootuff (assigning partners to God) and therefore permissible to gentiles when taking oaths but not permissible to Jews.

But the catch is that this only relates to taking oaths and not to worship. And he was very clear to tell me that the worship of Jesus is absolutely forbidden to Gentiles as well as Jews.

My goal is to let Christians know that the Noachide Laws as taught by Noachides and Jews are very hostile to the Christians faith.

All of Judaism teaches that gentiles are bound the Noachian Covenant which is the 7 Laws. To claim anything else is a lie.

In a book called Everyman's Talmud it discusses that the Torah was for all mankind and it will be a happy day when they all accept it.

The explanation is that Torah was given to Israel and Israel is to be a light to the nations. The nations accept Torah by accepting their obligation to live by the Noachian Laws.  Are you getting the point?

In Judaism and the Gentile Faiths, Joseph Schultz writes:
"The Laws of the Sons of Noah are referred to in the New Testament. The author of The Acts of the Apostles was confronted by communities of newly converted Christians who had not abandoned their pagan practices and licentious way of life. He wrote to them to "abstain from polutions of idols ..... from fornication ..... from things strangled and from blood" [Acts 15:20]. There are references to at least four of the Noahite Laws, the prohibitions against (1) idolatry, (2) sexual immorality, (3) the avoidance of cruelty to animals by strangling a living creature, (4) the prohibition against eating blood, which is one of the rabbinic variants of the Noahite Laws." [or this could be interpreted as the prohibition against shedding blood, i.e. murder which is one of the basic Noahite Laws]

Here we have an attempt by someone to reinterpret our Christian scriptures.
Even Shalom made this attempt earlier in this thread.  

It is crazy to say that the early church had the Noachide Laws in mind in any of the examples in the New Testament. Remember the Noachide Laws call for the establishment of courts to establish these laws and to kill for violations.
Yet the new testament tells us not to take our brothers to court!!! When the man was caught living with his mother in law - Paul said put him out of fellowship. No mention of decapitation. Later, if memory serves me, the man was allowed back in fellowship.

So Jewish leaders want the sole right to interpret their Torah and also the right to interpret our New Testament scriptures. They are offended when we tell them that they do not correctly understand the Old testament, yet it appears that they expect us to allow them to tell us that we do not correctly understand our New Testament scriptures.

Here is another quote from a noachide site:

The Talmud does record that Moses obligated the Jews to spread the knowledge of the Noahide commandments to all mankind. What if the pious Essenes had attempted such a mission to the Gentiles, and Jesus and Paul had been successful in bringing their efforts to fruition? (Such an approach does not diminish in any manner from the centrality of the Gospels and Christian tradition for Christians. To the contrary, it obligates Christians all the more to search for the correct interpretation of their tradition.)

Funny thing is, they act as if Christians have never hear people claim that Jesus and the disciples never intended to start a new faith. And that they never viewed Jesus as God.

Ridiculous!!! These ideas have been debated for centuries. And for Centuries they have been rejected by the Christian authorities and the Church fathers.

As Christians we should be aware of the agenda of people who make such attempts to redefine our faith.

To believe the words of the New Testament and to follow and worship Jesus as God - is held by them as an offence worthy of death and the Noachide Laws say it is so.
 
You see the attitude when they attempt to tell us that Acts records the early church leaders indorsing the noachide laws. The laws of Noah are not even mentioned. How many time does the New Testament mention the law of Moses? Yet they just happen to forget the Noachide covenant? Non-sense - they did not know of it, nor did they indorse it.  

The attitude also comes across when they attempt to persuade us that Jesus was just a "good Jew" who would be shocked at how Christianity developed. That He never claimed to be God.
Why do they do that if they do not see our belief in Him and worship of Him as God as blasphemy and idolatry? The truth is that they do see it as blasphemy and idolatry.

As far as hostility goes - it was Nojc who labeled Christianity as Anti-Semitic and Shalom's definition agreed. So it appears the hostility did not began with my claims but with theirs.

Maybe to them defense is hostility. So be it!


cook

IronRod wrote:

NoJC4me said:

Quote:
"In point of fact, NONE of the words quoted from the Book of Mormon were said by a Jew;"

And just where would you be getting this point of fact from?

Oh, from the fact that the book of Mormon is a work of fiction, of course.
Why? Did you take another meaning from my words?

Were the first "christian" Jews anti-semetic?  Hardly...they were Jews!!  You said some other interesting things which I will leave for further dialogue later. G.

Gee, we must first agree on the meaning of the term "Anti-Semitic"  If you google the term you'll find it means everything from anti-Israel, to anti-Jews, to anti-Judaism.





Shalom

Gee, we must first agree on the meaning of the term "Anti-Semitic" If you google the term you'll find it means everything from anti-Israel, to anti-Jews, to anti-Judaism.

Shalom

Sure.  But in what sense?  I can google everything in the world but it will never really tell me if I am truly "anti" semetic.

Let us discuss what YOU think is antisemetic.  I think that might be a place good to start from?

G.