Topic: Replacement theology (Read 9010 times)

Zagzagel · « **Reply #40 on:** May 14, 2006, 09:58:26 AM »

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I do not agree with your points.

That's okay. It's just the way I understand what is being said...granted, I could be wrong in my understanding too.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Acts, Peter addressed the crowd citing Joel. I know of no Christian Scripture that cite Jeremiah as Peter did Joel.

You are correct. Peter did cite Joel and other scriptures, but, I cannot say for sure that Peter did not cite Jeremiah. The text says, "And with many other words did he testify and exhort" (Acts 2:40). He could have cited Jeremiah but the text does not supply that information.

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Granted, Christians today think Jeremiah applies to them. That's my point.

True. I think one of the problems is how many christians try to explain it.

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Christianity has userped Jews and assume everything in our text appllies to us both. Jews don't think that way. Consider that an illegal alien in the US may know everythign there is to know about American - and believe 100% in our way of life - but they are not American's until American says they are Americans. That one way of considering how I look at Gentiles who say they are part of Israel.

I understand your point. Frankly, and with respect, I think that G-d determines the status and position of his creatures. At this time, I would like to ask a question (since I am not yet too familiar with Jewish eschatology): What will be messiahs role for the Gentile nations when he comes? What will be Isreals role towards the Gentile nations in the scheme of things when messiah comes?

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Yes - it applies only to those to whom and for whom it was written. Why on earth would you assume it applied to those outside Israel and Judah? Did G-d say He was speaking to anyone else? To think so, is another example of "replacement theology".

I did agree that Israel and Judah were in view and I think I showed that the christian writings agree with that. I don't think I am assuming too much at this point...ummmm...okay, I'll get back to this when I can put together a picture of what I think was happening in the first century when the Gentiles eventually were called into the faith.

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Who knows what a Jew is without accepted the Hebrew Scriptures? That's something to ponder. Christian scriptures, Mormon Scriptures, Quran - nothing has the definition that the Hebrew Scriptures brings to defining a people - even to those who hate, or dis-believe in the scriptures themselves.

As far as I'm concerned, I think the christian scriptures place a very high status of the Jewish people. I tried to show that earlier, especially with the examples in Revelation (which uses many Hebrew idioms), that this new heaven/earth is really a Jewish centered structure (new Jerusalem = twelve tribes of Israel/twelve apostles) in which the nations will be blessed.

The other writings not included in the christian scriptures is another matter. You would be suprised how many "christians" actually accept some of the other rejected writings. I think sntj once said that he was partial for the book of Barnabas. Others hold the book of Thomas in high esteem. etc. And, the KJV, 1611 edition, once contained a few apocryphal writings which eventually got dumped:) Basically, what we have now I have no problem with. One of the reasons I have no problem with the christian writings as we have them now is because it is cohesive in its overall message. And I don't really don't care if others want to include other non-canonical writings as a part of their learning.

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While you insist upon pointing out that the first followers of Jesus were Jews (a very logical idea), I contend Christianity as a religion, is a Gentile phenomenon. Find for me one "Early Church Father" - one of the men historians consider led the early Christian Church following the demise of the Apostles, who was a Jew. I'm not talking centuries after the Apostles, but within the first 100 or so years after the assumed authors of the Gospels were dead.

Yes I do insist that the heritage that the Gentile christians claim is really of Jewish origin (disciples of Christ). Some get very offended which doesn't suprise me. And I concede that eventually some teachings of the first apostles were lost site of as generations passed. But this Jew vs Gentile thing was happening already before the apostles passed off the scene. Anyways, I will try to answer your one question above - you send me on a journey and I'll be back with an answer (hopefully):)

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Believing the man Jesus is G-d, the Messiah who will bring us peace, is in the Jewish mind, equal to creating the idol of the Golden Calf. There are some Jews who believe the falling away of our people to this idolotry, is brining us the same suffering as when we worshiped Baal. Some even blame ourselves for the Holocaust.

Just more insights into the Jewish mind.

A good example that this is not only a phenomenon of Jewish history. The christian church has had its share of failings. No one is perfect might be the moral of the story, and G-d is gracious nevertheless.

G

nojc4me · « **Reply #41 on:** May 30, 2006, 02:20:39 PM »

What will be messiahs role for the Gentile nations when he comes? What will be Isreals role towards the Gentile nations in the scheme of things when messiah comes?

If I may,

The messiah (note the small "m," messiah is a title, is hardly unique, and does not indicate nor imply divinity) will be the king of his Nation, much like Elizabeth is the queen of hers. The Constitution of his country will be the Torah. And it will be enforced, at least in Israel.
As the leader of his country, messiah will represent his country before the Nations, just as Bush does for America.
If the Nations are friendly to Israel, Israel will be friendly to the Nations, if not, then the Nations will be crushed by G-d.
The Nations will benefit from the abundance of foodstuffs that Israel will produce in the messianic era. The Nations will benefit Israel monitarily. Possibly the two go together, but I have not been taught that they do.
All Israel will act as priests to the Gentile Nations, as Levi acts as priests to Israel. This is one reason Israel is called "messiah" in certain passages; they will be "anointed" just as Levites are anointed to serve the same office. Remember, "messiah" means, "anointed," and one was anointed to hold one of three offices: priest, prophet and/or king. No one person could possible hold all three offices, because priests are to come from Levi, while the kings come from Judah, and since his days, from Soloman.
But it is possble to be anointed to hold two offices, (priest/prophet, or king/prophet) and some people already have been.

Yes I do insist that the heritage that the Gentile christians claim is really of Jewish origin (disciples of Christ).

You must realize that your insistence carries no weight with me (I can't speak for anyone else), because you don't know the Torah as it is taught by the experts, so you have no foundation to say christianity is related to Judaism. In short, you don't know Judaism well enough to be able to say what is or is not like it. You only know what the christians say Judaism is like, or have at best the slimmest slice of understanding of Judaism based on what you think you understand of what you have heard from Jews themselves.

shalom · « **Reply #42 on:** May 30, 2006, 05:25:08 PM »

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You must realize that your insistence carries no weight with me (I can't speak for anyone else), because you don't know the Torah as it is taught by the experts, so you have no foundation to say christianity is related to Judaism.
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NoJc4me,

Thanks in a way for saying that. I get very remorseful when I see Christians laying claim to Israel - saying that becuase a few Jews believed x y or z, they are justified to believe the same. Need I remind them of the Jews that believed they were doing right by offering their children to Molech? What about the famous quote that Christians use "your righteousness is as filthy rags". They use that to say man can not be righteous before G-d. But if the would only read the entire chapter they would see Israel was taking upon themselves what they thought was "righteous living" - not following Torah. G-d had ever right to tell them 'their righteousness' was filthy rags. Go read the chapter - see for yourself!

I applaud any Gentile who seeks Our G-d, but I regret every encounter with a Gentile who attempts to tell me I should 'see the light' and adopt their view of Our G-d.

Shalom

nojc4me · « **Reply #43 on:** May 30, 2006, 06:45:10 PM »

What about the famous quote that Christians use "your righteousness is as filthy rags". They use that to say man can not be righteous before G-d. But if the would only read the entire chapter they would see Israel was taking upon themselves what they thought was "righteous living" - not following Torah. G-d had ever right to tell them 'their righteousness' was filthy rags. Go read the chapter - see for yourself!

I have been told to consider that the verse is directed to a specific group of people at a specific point in time, and that it is not a blanket denunciation of all Jews nor all mankind in general.

shalom · « **Reply #44 on:** May 31, 2006, 05:55:47 AM »

Quote from: nojc4me

I have been told to consider that the verse is directed to a specific group of people at a specific point in time, and that it is not a blanket denunciation of all Jews nor all mankind in general.

The condemnation came to Israel as they turned away from G-d. They incorporated customs of the Gentiles into their worship - even turing away from G-d and following after false g-ds has had been done so many times before. Thinking they were righteous, G-d told them otherwise through Isaiah. G-d allowed Israel to fall prey to their enemies and the temple was eventually destroyed in 586 B.C.E.

So the point is this: Just because a Jew - or a multitude of Jews say "x y or z", does not make it right. It must support Torah - or it is the same as a filty rag.

Shaom

Author Topic: Replacement theology (Read 9010 times)