The Written Torah explains the Oral Torah IS the Written Torah. The claim that, "if the Written Torah contradicts the Oral Torah, then the Oral Torah is correct" is fallacious. The Oral Torah, as we already said, IS the Written Torah, so there IS NO contradiction. Most probably, the actual teaching is that, "if the Written Torah and the Oral Torah seem to disagree, then follow the Oral Torah." The reason the precept is necessary is because the Rabbis, Levites, and kohenim were given the authority to make determinations as to how to apply Torah teachings, because times and situations change, and application of the Torah Laws may depend on these varying conditions. For example, the Torah commands that, if a sacrifice is offered, it must be offered at the Temple in Jerusalem, and nowhere else. What if there IS NO Temple? Does the Torah command for a sacrifice such as that offered on the High Holy Days or even Pasach, still apply? The rabbis say that those sacrifices cannot be offered, and that's what is followed. The decisions of those rabbis, the Torah tells us, is what we're supposed to follow, not diverting to the left to nor the right.
Therefore, following the decisions of the rabbis IS fulfilling the Torah commands, even if the Torah command is literally spelled out in plain words in the text of the Torah itself.
As always, though, CYLOR. Also remember, I AM NOT JEWISH.

SST,

I have search for a way to compliment you. AT last, I have found what I have searched for:

First of all the ability to interpret the Torah was given only to the kohenim and not to the rabbis and seeing as the rabbis and not the kohenim created the majority of the Oral Torah then their words are lacking in the ability to binding.

Well done. Best wishes.  Nojc is a Noachide.  I used to agree with him all the time. He's very smart naturally and in addition to his natural wit, he is well informed - so be ready!


Maybe you can reach him.
  cook

Sic Semper Tyranis Posted:

First of all the ability to interpret the Torah was given only to the kohenim and not to the rabbis

Incorrect. You obviously haven't read the Torah, and/or you don't know what it says. It plainly says that the right to explain the Torah rests with the "Levi'im, the Kohenim, and the judge who lives in your times."
The "Levi'im" and the "Kohenim" are well known. The judges are and have always been made up of rabbis. That's what the Levi'im and the Kohenim tell us, anyway. So the two groups identify the third, while that third recognizes and supports the other two. And, as the same section of the Torah tells us, we have to follow the decisions and judgements of the  Levi'im and the Kohenim.
Meanwhile, none of them support the claim of christians to interpret any of the Jewish Holy Scriptures with any validity or even reliability, but may do whatever they desire to do to their own scriptures.

Second their are flat out contradictions between the written Torah and the oral Torah. For example in the written Torah to take a a young goat, slaughter it, boil it in the milk of it's mother and then eat it.

Your statement's text seems to have a typographical error or two. For example, "take a a young goat"? How many again?
Also, the straight text of your sentence is wrong. Torah says NOT to take aa young goat, slaughter it, boil it in the milk of it's mother and then eat it, not TO do so.

Based on this commandment the oral Torah claims that any mixing of meat and dairy, (example a cheeseburger) would be a sin to eat. Quite rankly the complete seperation of meat and dairy is not commanded in the written Torah and it's presence in the oral Torah shows it's less than divine origin.

Your ignorance of what the Torah says does in no way show it (the Torah or the Oral Torah - your sentence structure could support either understanding) is of less than divine origin.

SST,

I agree with you that he is not using the text correctly!! And I have told him so myself.
I was only disappointed that you seemed not to know what he was talking about.
And if you didn't know what verses he was relying on, there seemed little hope that you could argue with him.

I don't want in this debate! I've been there, done that!
I was hoping to sit back and watch you guys.
But I didn't want him to tear you limb from limb - before you even started.

I kind of like to see him backed up to the wall where he is left saying CYLOR.
He NEVER gives in or changes his mind, but if you can get the usual CYLOR that is close enough to a win!

Anyway, have fun.

cook

Sic Semper Tyranis said:

I did forget to write that eating [the young goat and mother's milk] was a sin. I have since edited my comment to the appropriate context and apologize for any confusion it may have caused.

Done it myself. And recently, too! Transposed "intentional" and "unintentional". It was a pretty big "ooops"!

In any event the Oral Torah's complete ban on meat/dairy mixing is in is an addition to the written Torah and is in direct violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 rendering the oral Torah of human design.

That's completely backwards! The explanations of the rabbis are essential to proper understanding of the Torah, as well as for the keeping and obeying of the Biblical Commandments. They're not "of human design" but part of the Torah.
It's on topic, so, if the 'puter doesn't lock up, I'll find and post something on the subject.

As for the oral Torah being the written Torah why is it written in the Babylonian Talmud Eruvin 21b "My Son! Be careful concerning Rabbinical decrees even more than the Torah... the Torah contains prohibitions... But anyone who violates a Rabbinical decree is worthy of death." Why on earth are rabbinical decrees being given even higher status than the decrees of YHWH?

They're not. The passage (if it's authentic, I don't know that it is, after all, others have posted stuff here and falsely claimed it was from the Talmud; but it looks authentic so far), merely shows that the decisions ARE of God! Besides, the Torah itself warns Israel not to divert from the decisions of the judges of Israel. The Eruvin passage (again, if it's authentic) simply reiterates and reinforces the Torah on this issue.

Finally forgive me my ignorance but can you show me where in the Torah is it written that the Levites, Kohenim and judges can interpret the Torah?

I think Cook already did that.

Sic Semper Tyranis said:

Firstly verse 8, where is it written that levites, kohenim and judges can make infallible interpretations of the Torah?

As far as I know, it's NOT! In fact, there's a passage in the Torah that says that if it is discovered that the rabbis were wrong, and the people followed them in their error, that the people are to repent and correct their actions to reflect the corrected decision. But that doesn't matter. We have to follow their decisions, anyway.

Secondly, the kohenim, Levites and judges no longer exist.

I don't know if that's said out of ignorance or anti-Semitism. Which is it?

The judges were those who governed Israel prior to the establishment of the monarchy. Once a king was in place the judges ended.

Ah, there's my answer: ignorance.
Apparently, you think that once there was a king appointed, legal disputes ended, so judges were no longer required or desired.

There are so many interpretations of the Bible. In essence, the entire religions of Christianity and Islam are interpretations of the Bible. One need not be a sage to see that many Biblical interpretations are mutually exclusive of one another. So what is the Bible really saying? Who has the right to decide?

                We are not the first persons to ask this question. This question has been around since Biblical times. G-d, in His infinite wisdom, knew that His spiritual Word could be understood and misunderstood in a number of different ways. Therefore, G-d Himself, ordained the proper way as to how His Word was and is to be properly understood.

                G-d's Word contains His laws. Yet, the details of many of these laws are not clearly stated. G-d obviously knew this and thus ordained the law as to what the proper form for defining and directing Biblical legislation is to be. This law is found in Deut. 17:9-12.

                "When a matter of judgment is hidden from you, between blood and blood, between verdict and verdict... you shall rise up and ascend to the place that HaShem shall choose. You shall come to the priest, levite or judge who will be in those days; you shall inquire and they will tell you the word of judgment. You shall do according to the word that they will tell you...and you shall be careful to do according to everything they will teach you. According to the teaching that they will teach you and according to the judgment that they will say to you, shall you do, you shall not deviate from the word that they will tell you, right or left. And the man that will act with willfulness, not listening...to the judge, that man shall die, and you shall destroy the evil from among Israel."

                What is to be done when there is a question of law or Biblical understanding that has no clear answer? The L-rd directed the people to turn to the priest, levite and judge who shall be in those days (i.e., the days when the question arises). Priests and levites were the servants of the Tabernacle (and later of the Temple). As such, they were viewed as being THE experts as to the meanings of the Torah and the Oral tradition. Yet, they were not alone in this position. Even the layman of the different tribes of the house of Israel were expected to study and know the ways of the Torah. The select of this group also could serve in a judicial fashion so as to "interpret" the Law of G-d for the new or changing circumstances, in accordance to Deut. 17. This is the law as outlined in the Bible.

                This law, in my opinion, becomes one of the most important in light of evolving Jewish history. As is known, nothing ever stays the same. Times and lives are always in a constant state of change. Even in the generation of Joshua, after the death of Moses, changes began to occur and questions regarding the law arose.

                The Bible commands the Jewish people to perform a number of different commandments, the violation of which could lead to severe punishment, including a death penalty. Yet, even with the severity of laws such as the refraining from work on the holy Sabbath, no details are given as to the practical applications of correct compliance. This can be problematic. If the law does not stipulate what is permitted and what is forbidden, how can it possibly be observed? Already in the days of Moses it is recorded (Num.15:32-36) that a man, who went out to pick up sticks on the Sabbath, was punished by stoning. This is quite a sentence. Where do we read in the Bible that the "work" that this man did was forbidden? We don't. The Bible doesn't say it. Nonetheless, when he performed his forbidden deed it was recognized by everyone as a violation of the Sabbath. He was imprisoned awaiting response to an inquiry to G-d as to what should be this man's punishment. The penalty came back and it was most severe.

                What is learned from this and many other Biblical episodes is that not everything is recorded in the Bible. The written Torah given at Mt. Sinai was never meant to be a comprehensive code which one could just read and follow. On the contrary, the written Torah raises many questions as to interpretation. For example in Deut. 6, G-d commands the Jewish people to take His words and to 'bind them upon your hands and that they shall be frontlets between your eyes'. This is the commandment that ordains the practice of wearing tefillin (small Torah scroll portions encased in two leather boxes that are strapped to the head and arm of Jewish adult males during certain prayer services). As is clear from the Biblical text, the written Torah does not clearly say what these Tefillin are, how they are to be made or how or when they are to be worn. How then, when the children of Israel received these words from Moses, did they interpret them? How did Moses understand them? Why didn't he write down more for us to understand?

                The answers to these questions are really more simple than complicated. Based on Deut. 17, when a question arose regarding a Biblical command whose practice was unclear, the people would ask the judicial authorities for specific instruction. In the days of Moses, the Jewish people of course asked him. Moses in turn asked G-d. G-d told Moses and Moses told the people. These words were never written down. In those days there was no need to write these words down. And why? Because the written Torah had spoken and the oral interpretation was generally known. Therefore, only with regards to new things were there any questions. What we learn from all this is the absolute necessity of the existence of the Oral tradition and of its absolute authority as to the meaning and practice of the written Word.

                As mentioned above, it is the authority of the Oral tradition that truly outlines correct Biblical practice and interpretation. No one has the authority to claim himself to be a judge and interpreter of the Bible unless certain criteria are met. As with any profession since Biblical days, judges had to be both learned and ordained. In Biblical days, there existed the Temple anointing, performed by a priest with anointing oil. Since the destruction of the Temple and the cessation of that ritual form, other forms have been instituted to take its place. And where did the authority come from to change such an age old ritual? From Deut. 17, of course. The authority of the judges of the law is clearly stated to be throughout all generations. Therefore, throughout Biblical times, Rabbinic times and to this day, just as the Biblical laws of the ten commandments are still in force, so is the Biblical commandment of judicial authority.

                This understanding of the authority of the Biblical judges, who throughout history have been called the Rabbis, is most important. For without a full appreciation, respect and acceptance of their authority, the Bible  and the other written and Oral Words of G-d will always remain closed to the general public. And this must not be so!

                The true under-standings of the Bible have been lost to the gentile people from the beginnings of their reading the Bible. Remember, the Bible was written by and given to Jews. G-d's revelation to the children of Israel is unique and exclusive, as it is written, "He did not do so for any other nation; such judgments, they know them not." (Psalms 147:20). Yet, a gentile must not walk away from these words thinking that he/she therefore has no place in the word and plan of G-d. As has been already said above, the Gentile plays an essential role in the general scheme of things. Just what that is has been revealed to the Rabbis and only through them to the Gentile nations. As the judges of G-d's law and word, this is their authority here upon the earth.

[For the first portion of this document, google "The Gentile and the Torah"]

geegee asked:

IF the Jews were promised a New Covanant by the very words of GOD and was no longer to based on the words given to the fathers or those whom HE (Hashem/GOD) brought out of Egypt, what is that promise and who was to confirm that NEW COVENANT?

Mordachai Alfandari wrote:
What is a covenant? It is an agreement between two or more LIVING PERSONS! If the parties to the agreement die, the agreement is no longer binding! A covenant may (or may not) be solemnised by a symbolic act like circumcision, sacrifice, etc. However, this is a marginal element. What counts is the agreement between the living parties to do certain things. Jeremiah 31:31-34 describes a new covenant or agreement to be made between [the L-rd G-d], the Everlasting Redeemer [and] Israel and Judah! Two major conditions appear in this covenant:
a) [the L-rd G-d's] Law is confirmed and intensified! (verse 33).
b) teaching of "religious doctrine" and evangelization will be done away with because "they ALL SHALL KNOW ME ([the L-rd G-d]), from the least of them to the greatest!" (verse 34).
Thus "they shall teach NO MORE every man his neighbor!" (ibid).
What is a testament? It is the last will of a dead person! "for a testament is of force AFTER MEN ARE DEAD: Otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth!" Hebrews 9:16-17. This passage refers to the testament of [J.C.] which allegedly became valid when he died. According to Galatians 5:1-6, this testament DESTROYED the VERY BASIS of [the L-rd G-d's] LAW and REPLACED it by "salvation" based on FAITH!
Moreover, the "dead testator" commanded his followers to "teach all nations" etc. (Matthew 28:19) thus proving that the CONDITION MENTIONED IN JEREMIAH 31:34 was NOT satisfied or fulfilled by the "testament" of the "dead testator"!!
Honest persons must admit that there is NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER between [the L-rd G-d's] new covenant, and the "new" testament of the dead god-man, [J.C.], of [Crosstian] mythology; just as there is NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER between the promised Davidic Ruler described in Isaiah, chapter 11, who will usher in an era of universal peace, justice and salvation; and the dead "messiah" of the church who left behind him bloodshed, idolatry, disease, hatred, and misery!
THE COVENANT -- RESTORATION, LIGHT, REDEMPTION!!
THE TESTAMENT -- RUIN, DARKNESS, CONDEMNATION!!
The New Coovenant is NOT a little book people give out on street corners! The "New Testament" is not a covenant, nor is it of [the L-rd G-d]!