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Stathei

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The Shroud of Turin
« on: February 06, 2006, 11:25:59 AM »

What are your thoughts on the Shroud of Turin? One of the original scientists has cast doubt on the 1988 dating process which concluded it was fake.

Does anyone find it troubling that the image looks like a painting? If it were somehow magically burned into the fabric of a shroud which was wrapped around the body, wouldn't the image be distorted?
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valerie

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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2006, 04:49:08 PM »

I wouldn't even care if it were real.  Perhaps if it were it would get some kind of shrine like other Christian artifacts.
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Tony N

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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2006, 08:59:43 AM »

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:oNyVQFUqkgoJ:www.museumofhoaxes.com/turin.html+shroud+of+turin+painted+by&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=8

The Shroud of Turin first came to the attention of the public in 1355 when it was exhibited at the Church of St. Mary in Lirey, France. It had been given to the church by a French knight, Geoffroy de Charny, who probably acquired it in Constantinople.

The shroud soon became the subject of controversy. A report to Pope Clement argued that the shroud was merely a painting, and that it was being falsely displayed as a true relic in order to solicit donations to the church. As a consequence, Pope Clement declared the relic a fraud.

In 1453 the shroud was acquired by de Charny's granddaughter who eventually sold it to the Duke of Savoy. The Savoys exhibited it for many decades, claiming that it was the holy shroud that had covered Christ as he lay in the tomb. In 1532 it was almost destroyed in a fire. The shroud still displays burn marks from this incident.

Throughout the twentieth century researchers dueled back and forth over the shroud's authenticity. In 1982 a group calling itself the Shroud of Turin Research Project declared it to be genuine after studying samples lifted from the cloth using tape. However, radiocarbon tests performed later during the 1980s dated the shroud to approximately the fourteenth century, indicating that the relic was a fake. Nevertheless, shroud supporters found many reasons to dispute the radiocarbon testing, and so the debate raged on and likely will for the foreseeable future.

Updates:
Aug 22, 2002: The Vatican admits it has secretly been allowing a scientist to perform tests on the shroud for the past few months. The scientist is trying to get a more accurate reading of the exact age of the shroud's fibers, following criticism of 1988 tests of the age of the fibers

Apr 18, 2004: A second face is discovered on the backside of the shroud.
January 31, 2005: New tests suggest that the shroud may be older than previously thought. Tests done in 1988 had apparently (mistakenly) analyzed patches woven into the shroud following the fire in 1532. Raymond Rogers has published a paper in Thermochimica Acta stating that the shroud itself appears to be far older, between 1,300 and 3,000 years old.

March 2005: Nathan Wilson publishes an article suggesting that the shroud could have easily been created by a medieval forger if the forger painted a figure of a man on a piece of glass, placed the glass over a linen shroud, and left this setup out in the sun for a couple of days. The sun would bleach the linen, but leave behind a photo-negative image of the figure painted on the glass.

And this is interesting to read:

The Shroud of Turin
by Al Seckel and John Edwards

The controversial Shroud of Turin is a linen cloth containing the faint image of a bearded man purported to be Jesus.
Misleading statements made by many newspapers, books, and television newscasts, have led many Christians to believe that the Shroud of Turin is positive proof of Christs miraculous nature. Contrary to these claims, human manufacture has not been scientifically ruled out as the method of forming the Shrouds image. In fact, historical evidence indicates that this is the most likely explanation for its existence.

Relicmania

Throughout the history of Christianity, holy relics have been venerated. The first pilgrims to the Holy Land brought back to Europe thousands of apocryphal relics, where they were sold for large fortunes.[2]

Relics were thought to ward off evils and to cure dreaded diseases.

Pilgrimages to the shrines that contained relics generated considerable revenues. So profitable a business attracted many skillful practitioners. Thousands of spurious relics were sold to individuals and churches. Monasteries in need of funds were tempted to "discover" new relics.[1]

The favorite relic was the wood of the True Cross. In the eleventh and twelfth centuries, fragments supposedly cut from it were available in almost every church in Europe.[2]

If these fragments had been collected together, they would have provided enough material to build a cathedral. A church in St. Omer claimed to have bits of the True Cross, of the Lance that pierced Christ, of his Cradle, and the original stone tablets upon which the Ten Commandments had been traced by the very finger of God! Three churches in France each professed to have a complete corpse of Mary Magdalene and five churches in France vowed that they had the on authentic relic of Christs
circumcision!

There were at least 26 "authentic" burial shrouds scattered throughout the abbeys of Europe, of which the Shroud of Turin is just one.[3]

The Shroud is Discovered

Not all of the clergy were intoxicated by relicmania. Some were honest men, repelled by the circus that was engulfing their church and they set out to investigate certain relics. In 1357 the famous Shroud of Turin first appeared publicly for large fees. A local French bishop, Henri de Poitiers, started an investigation into its background. As a result of his findings the Shroud was declared a fake and the viewings were stopped. Thirty years later the exhibitions were revived, prompting the bishop to write a lengthy letter to Pope Clement VII. This important letter contains the earliest written reference to the Shroud.[3] It begins (translated):

"The case, Holy Father, stands thus. Sometime since in this dioceses of Troyes,    The Dean of a certain collegiate church, to wit, that of Lirey, falsely and deceitfully, being consumed with the passion of avarice, and not of any motive of devotion but only of gain, procured for his church a certain cloth cunningly painted..."[3]

The bishop then described the image on the cloth, which we today call the Shroud of Turin, along with the circumstances of the exhibitions, and continued:

"Eventually, after diligent inquiry and examination, he [the Bishop] discovered  the fraud and how the said cloth was cunningly painted, the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it, to wit, that it was a work of  human skill and not miraculously wrought or bestowed. I offer myself as ready to supply all information sufficient to remove any doubt concerning the  facts alleged."[3]

Clement VII considered the matter and issued a Papal Bull, which ordered that the Shroud of Turin be advertised only as a "copy."[4] However, since this directive was not profitable, the Bull was gradually forgotten, and this "cunningly painted" cloth came to be the most venerated relic in Christendom.

STURP

If we know historically that the Shroud was produced by an artist, why is there so much controversy? This is because of a group called the Shroud of Turin Research Project, STURP.

STURP consists of 40 scientists, 39 of whom are professed Christians. STURP is not an objecting scientific research group; they are actively trying to prove authenticity. Before they even examined the Shroud many made statements such as: "I am forced to conclude that the image was formed by a burst of radiant energy--light if you will. I think there is no question about that."[4]

After STURP scientists had actually examined the Shroud many of them kept to their preconceived conclusions; however, several scientists were forced to resign from the group when their investigations led to the result that the Shroud was a clever forgery. Though STURP scientists are careful not to conclude that the Shroud is genuine, they say that they cannot prove it is a fake, leaving the strong impression that it was miraculously formed. Independent scientists and some former STURP members point out that STURPs conclusion that no artist could have produced the Shroud is pure speculation, not demonstrated fact. Further, they charge that there is sufficient evidence that it was manufactured.

Scientific Results

Carbon dating, the first test ordinarily performed on archeological artifacts, finally has been done in 1988. Three independent tests were done and all three showed that the cloth dated from +/- 50 years of 1300 A.D. This definitely shows that the Shroud is a medieval forgery. Although that, by itself, should be enough to end all belief in the Shroud, it will not. Before carbon dating, other tests were performed, providing data upon which to base a decision, other not. Microscopic and chemical tests found vermilion (an artists red pigment used widely during the Middle Ages) in the so called "bloodstains." Walter McCrone, a world-renowned forensic microanalyst, subjected the Shroud of Turin to careful microscopic and chemical studies. His conclusion: "My microanalytical work on the sticky tapes from the Shrouds surface has proved to my satisfaction that the entire image was produced by an artist using iron earth and
vermilion pigments in a tempera medium... The amount of these pigments is greater in the area of greater image density, particularly the bloodstains..."[4]

The Shrouds weave (a three-to-one twill, herringbone pattern) shows that it was manufactured in the Middle Ages. Before that time, linen was woven in simpler weaves. All surviving cloths from the time of Jesus, including the wrappings of the Dead Sea Scrolls, have a plain weave--very different from that of the Shroud.[6]

How Was the Image Formed?

As a result of the investigation it was determined that the image was not painted in the usual manner. It was probably formed through a process of rubbing over a statue, a technique used since the twelfth century.[5] This rubbing technique can produce an image that has many of the characteristics of the Shroud image, including negativity. If care is taken in the rubbings, the resultant image is rather faint, shows no brush marks, has visually proper tonal gradations, and has a depth of color penetration limited to a few surface fibrils. [4] References 4-6 give full details on the scientific  findings.

Conclusion

The Shroud of Turin is one of many relics manufactured for profit during the Middle ages. Shortly after the Shroud emerged it was declared a fake by the bishop who discovered the artist. This is verified by recent scientific investigations which found paint in the image areas.

The Shroud of Turin is also not consistent with Gospel accounts of Jesus burial, which clearly refer to multiple cloths and a separate napkin over his face.

It is a shame that in spite of the evidence, the credulous media and public are shrouded in more confusion than was a bishop from the Dark Ages.

References
1.Durant, Will, The Age of Faith, Simon and Schuster, 1950.
2. Mackay, Charles, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds,  Bonanza Books, 1980.
3.Wilson, Ian, The Shroud of Turin, Doubleday, 1978.
4.The Skeptical Inquirer, Spring 1982.
5.Bodor, J. J., Rubbings and Textures, Reinhold Books, 1968.
6.Nickell, Joe, Inquest on the Shroud of Turin, Prometheus Books, 1983.
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8d82thebone

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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2006, 11:31:24 AM »

Stathei I have done some reading on the subject, and while it is true that there is a lot of controversy on the subject, it is not quite as cut and dried as Tony has put it.
 The Shroud was well-known to have existed well before the appearance in Lirey, France.
 It is likely the same Cloth which was on display at the Church of St. Mary of Blachernae, in Constantinople. Europeans were known to have visited this site as early as the 10th century, and written of a cloth on display which "bears the image of our Lord." (I lent the book I had to someone and don't have the name of the writer, but I will try to get it for you and post it later)
 I believe if I can remember properly it was called the "Cloth of Edessa"
This cloth disappeared in the 1290's when Constantinople was sacked by the Crusaders and never seen again.
 DeCharny's father was a very high-ranking French knight who took part in the Crusades in the Near East
 Tony also forgot to mention that the evidence that the tape was used to gather was from a Swiss forensic expert, who found literally hundreds of different pollens, many of them found only in the Middle East, some only in the Negev Desert, as well as traces of a limestone found primarily around Jerusalem.
There was so much pollen evidence that a special conference was held at the University of Philadelphia I believe, to study it.
 The 'vermilion' supposedly found on the shroud was disproven by x-ray analysis which showed no such material existed anwhere on the shroud.
 The reason for the 1988 Carbon 14 dates being inaccurate was shown to be the existence of an invisible 'bioplastic coating' (lichenothelia varnish)
which forms on any organic material from antiquity. This is likey the reason many artifacts were given faulty dates during that time period. The AMS, or Accelerated Mass Spectrometer method of C 14 dating is particularly  unreliable, a fact that only now scientists are beginning to admit.
 The reason the pollen evidence is so important is that no 'medieval forger' knew about pollen and therefore would not have known nor cared whether or not the linen actually came from that particular area of the world.
Another thing worth mentioning about the shroud is the fact that the image seen in the positive is virtually invisible to the naked eye. Viewers are required to stand around 10 feet away to see the image of the man in the shroud. Only when the image is seen in the negative can any details be clearly seen.
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Tony N

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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2006, 02:55:00 PM »

And let's not forget what 8d82thebone passes over:

1357 the famous Shroud of Turin first appeared publicly for large fees. A local French bishop, Henri de Poitiers, started an investigation into its background.
He wrote to the Pope:
"The case, Holy Father, stands thus. Sometime since in this dioceses of Troyes, The Dean of a certain collegiate church, to wit, that of Lirey, falsely and deceitfully, being consumed with the passion of avarice, and not of any motive of devotion but only of gain, procured for his church a certain cloth cunningly painted..."[3]


"Eventually, after diligent inquiry and examination, he [the Bishop] discovered the fraud and how the said cloth was cunningly painted, the truth being attested by the artist who had painted it, to wit, that it was a work of human skill and not miraculously wrought or bestowed. I offer myself as ready to supply all information sufficient to remove any doubt concerning the facts alleged."[3]

3.Wilson, Ian, The Shroud of Turin, Doubleday, 1978.
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8d82thebone

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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2006, 10:56:23 PM »

Cunningly painted indeed Tony, since the artistic concept of perspective wasnt even known until the Rennaissance, much less believing a medieval artist could be able to paint in 3-D, which is what the shroud essentially is when viewed in the negative.
 The 'statue wrap' method you mentioned earlier would still only give a 2-D image at best.
 What did the bishop have to say about the fact that the Catholic church was ready to excommunicate Mme. de Charny if she refused to hand over the 'cunningly painted forgery'? Hmmm?
 As far as I know, Mr. Wilson has stated in his book, 'The Blood and the Shroud', that no actual paint or ink medium has ever been detected in the fibres of the shroud. What has been found though, is human amelogenin(a component in blood) from both the X and Y chromosomes. Very cunning indeed.
 Far more than would have been necessary to fool medieval minds, don't you think?
 Why is it that the 'forger' went against the grain, and showed the man in the shroud  nailed through the wrists (as was likely the case from what we know of Roman crucifixion) instead of through the palms as was normally depicted in medieval artwork? Wouldn't that serve to arouse suspicion?
 And finally, if Jesus really was resurrected, why isnt it possible that the shroud would have been kept by followers, (possibly Mary Magdalene, Martha or one of the other women who went to the tomb & wanted to show it to others as proof?) Put yourself at the scene,Tony, wouldnt you have kept it, especially if it had the image on it?
 I'm not saying I totally believe it's authentic... I'm saying that given the evidence it's possible it's authentic. And if it is, what are the implications of that? This is one of the things that got me thinking about the life I was leading and re-establishing my relationship with God again, Tony.
<><
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Stathei

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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2006, 02:25:29 PM »

It strikes me that the shroud is like the Loch Ness monster. The original photograph which started the current interest in the Loch Ness monster (the famous "surgeon's photograph" of the long neck and head coming out of the water) was later admitted to be a fake by its creator. Despite this, rigorous scientific study was subsequently used to try to definitively prove or disprove the existence of this admitted hoax. Of course, it was disproved - yet still debate rages.

Similarly, the artist who faked the shroud confessed that he had done so. Needless scientific study has shown this to be the case - yet still debate rages.

We, as humans, really want to believe this sort of nonsense - it's religion in microcosm.
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Zagzagel

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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2006, 03:41:32 PM »

I don't care about this shroud, and never did.  Perhaps some comments should be directed at us who don't, nor rely, on such artifacts to make a claim?

G.
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Stathei

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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2006, 04:23:34 PM »

I think that's what "it's religion in microcosm" was intended for, G... [biggrin
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2006, 04:31:08 PM »

I apologize then.  I obviously misunderstood your direction.  Stat, great to see that you are posting again. [biggrin
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Stathei

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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2006, 04:43:48 PM »

Thanks, G, good to be back - I took a break for Christmas (Hypocrite? Moi? Mais oui!), but came back when I saw "The God Who Wasn't There" and started to care about this stuff again  [smile ...
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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2006, 10:36:46 AM »

I'm not saying I have to use any of this kind of stuff as a substitute for faith. I don't think anything can replace faith. I guess I find these things kind of fascinating in a way, being a sort of history buff...
 I also find it interesting how a shroud or an object like a bone box with 'james the brother of jesus' written on it can get people on either side of the issue fired up!
 For instance, no one I know of questions the existence of Mohammed, Buddha, etc, but as soon as something involving the existence of Jesus comes up, everything hits the fan. Why is that?
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"Besides being complicated, reality, in my experience, is usually odd. It is not neat, not obvious, not what you expect...Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed."
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Stathei

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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2006, 02:23:57 PM »

Probably because there were no contemporary accounts of Jesus life, nor did he leave any writings of his own. Initial writings about him about 40 years after he died made no mention of miracles - that was inserted in the Gospels. These miraculous aspects resembled strongly other supposed supernatural beings who came before him.

These things cast doubt on his existence and raise the possibility that he was a mythical figure. I have not looked into it, but I don't think they apply to Mohammad or Buddha.
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2006, 03:22:02 PM »

"Probably because there were no contemporary accounts of Jesus life,"

False.

"nor did he leave any writings of his own."

False.  Another question altogether if what we have is what he wrote.

"Initial writings about him about 40 years after he died made no mention of miracles"

False.

"that was inserted in the Gospels."

False.  

"These miraculous aspects resembled strongly other supposed supernatural beings who came before him."

So?

You think that is an argument against Christianity.  Its actually an argument for Christianity.
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Stathei

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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2006, 05:42:11 PM »

Quote
False


Please enlighten me, SJ. If there is a contemporary account of Jesus' life that is a major hole in my argument against his existence and I would like to know how credible it is.

What writings did he leave? Again, a major blow if you can show me examples of Jesus' writings. It would indeed be surprising if the Son of God could walk on water but not be able to master spelling  :-s .

I was also under the illusion that initial accounts by Paul did not mention miracles. Am I wrong?

Quote
So?


So, if there were others before Jesus who were said to have been born of a virgin, performed miracles and were resurrected after they died, why is yours the only real one - since you disregard the others as myths? The only argument offered by the church is that the others were made up by Satan to test our belief. On that argument, all of Christianity rests. Perhaps that is why 99% of Christians have never heard of them... :roll:

I will be interested in your sources, SJ - maybe you'll make a Christian of me yet... :smt059
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2006, 05:54:11 PM »

"Please enlighten me, SJ. If there is a contemporary account of Jesus' life that is a major hole in my argument against his existence and I would like to know how credible it is."

I guess you missed my challenge elsewhere.  Maybe it was the atheist dvd thread.  I thought you were snubbing me.   My feelings were hurt.  :)  I will re-iterate my overall question which I think I need you to answer for me before I can launch the rebuttal.    What do you need for something to be considered contemporary?  If Robert F. Kennedy spoke about JFK five years after JFK's assassination, is that no longer a contemporary account of JFK?

"What writings did he leave? Again, a major blow if you can show me examples of Jesus' writings."

!!!!!!

Too juicy to pass up.  But for now I'm going to, just to stay focused on the one above.

"It would indeed be surprising if the Son of God could walk on water but not be able to master spelling"  

:)

"I was also under the illusion that initial accounts by Paul did not mention miracles. Am I wrong?"

Well, the resurrection is a miracle, isn't it?  1 Cor 15 clearly speaks to the resurrection and argues that Jesus appeared resurrected before 500 people at one time.  He goes further and says that many of those 500 are still alive, even.

"The only argument offered by the church is that the others were made up by Satan to test our belief."

That is not true.  I just said that this is in fact an argument FOR Christianity.  I can list two Christian apologists from this last century who have cited it as much, and they weren't drawing on their own steam.

"I will be interested in your sources, SJ - maybe you'll make a Christian of me yet..."

<------ rolls up sleeves, grabs a shot of whiskey, awaits Stathei's remarks on the nature of a contemporary source.
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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2006, 06:08:38 PM »

I set the whiskey aside for not.  Dinner, first.   I'll imbibe later tonight.  I realized that this writing of Jesus business forms one of my arguments for the existence of Jesus in the history section that I was going to do, but with Copernicus dropping off the subject of late, I failed to do.  So, I'll start a thread on that issue separately.
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2006, 07:03:23 PM »

Sorry, SJ, if I was unclear. Please quote me a single source who recorded a single word about Jesus while Jesus was alive. That is what I mean by contemporary.

You can throw up a smokescreen of "what is the nature of "contemporary"" if you wish, but that is just a transparent tactic - one you overuse - to avoid the issue we are discussing.

Quote
Too juicy to pass up.


Ooohh, you tease! You have examples of Jesus' writings - let's hear 'em!
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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2006, 10:02:32 PM »

"Sorry, SJ, if I was unclear. Please quote me a single source who recorded a single word about Jesus while Jesus was alive. That is what I mean by contemporary."

So, it is your opinion that comments by Robert Kennedy about his brother after his brother's death would not be contemporary evidence for his brother's existence?

Why does JFK have to be alive in order for a source to be considered contemporary?  Why isn't it enough that the person was alive AT THE SAME TIME as the other person?  

That seems a much more reasonable understanding to me.

"You can throw up a smokescreen [....] to avoid the issue we are discussing."

You misunderstand my intentions.  Its not issue avoidance I'm after, but rather clarification of the issue itself.  As you can tell from this simple example, I have a different idea of 'contemporary' than you do.  It seems to me that before I can fully address your challenge, I have to know the nature of it.  Having now established what your view is, and contrasted it with my own, we can set about deciding which of our views is more accurate, or more helpful, and what significance (if any) there is in either.

I've been doing this for a LONG TIME.  I've had too many arguments shipwrecked because the other dude changed the meaning of a word or something like that after 5,000 words have passed between us.

"Ooohh, you tease! You have examples of Jesus' writings - let's hear 'em!"

Keep your eye out for the new thread.  ;)
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Anthony Horvath

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The Shroud of Turin
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2006, 10:16:00 PM »

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=contemporary

Def 2 seems good to me.  "About" being good enough.

Example given:  "Shelley and Keats were contemporaries."

John Keats lived until 1821 but Percy Shelley lived until 1822.  According to your logic, if Shelley had written something mentioning Keats in 1820, it would have been 'contemporary,' but if she had written something in 1822 about Keats, it would not have been 'contemporary.'

I think 'contemporary' has two legitimate meanings we can apply here.  On the one hand, we can talk about people living in an over-lapping time period.  Ie, someone lives from the year 3020 to year 3060 and someone else lives 2990 to 3030.  I'd say that's contemporary- but these two people need not know each other.  They could be completely unknown to each other and yet still be contemporary.  Or of course, one could have heard of the other but never met.

Another meaning that is legitimate that I think is much more applicable and meaningful in our context would be two people who were actually acquainted with each other.   I hardly see why after the death of one of them the testimony about that person by the other ceases to be of value, just because they happen to live longer.    If they lived in an overlapping time frame, that's contemporary.  If they KNEW each other, that's even better.

I think this is a very reasonable view I have here.  Perhaps we can invent a word to describe what you mean and then only talk about that (*shrug*)- I just don't think 'contemporary' is really as narrow as you suggest it is.
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Today's Favorite Quote:  "The UN is like GI Joe - an organization with the goal of world peace. Difference being one of them actually achieves their goals."  EndBringer

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