Interesting question...I will do my best to keep this short!  

You are asking here a question related to the nature of God himself.  Obviously, from reading the Bible one can at least possibly believe that Jesus and God were two seperate beings (some people don't but there is much to support that they are).  Nevertheless, Joseph Smith's first vision verified that to be true when he saw God and Jesus Christ together and they both spoke to him.

There is also doctrine that indicates that God is the father of our spirits and that God was once as we are...

Man is a soul, that is, a dual being, a spirit person clothed in a tangible body of flesh and bones. God is a perfected, saved soul enjoying eternal life. He is both immortal and exalted to the highest glory. He is enjoying that blessed condition which men may attain to by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

The Almighty is not alone in his eternal glory. Myriads of saved souls enjoy his society. Family relationships prevail there; spirit offspring are born there; our spirits were born there. Modern revelation affirms the fact that all the inhabitants of the worlds are the

But tell me what you think about all the discrepancies between what Joe says and what the bible claims? (Do I need examples or do you know the short and custom answers?)

I am glad that you think I am such an expert on what JS said but that is simply not the case!  

I cannot stop you from giving examples but I do question up front your statement of "what the bible claims".  It certainly isn't clear to many people in the world what the bible claims thus I don't see how you can claim discrepancies between what JS said and the bible.  But go on if you must...

Again, your confidence is astounding...on two fronts...first that you think I have such information of Joseph Smith sayings...second that you seem to think that I care.  On the first point I will research what I can, what is available to me.  On the second, it matters little to me what Joseph Smith said or did that is contrary to the Bible.  In fact I very much doubt that you won't be successful in this endeavor.  You will, however, fail at convincing me that my faith is misplaced.

So I ask you, what is your purpose in this?  The LDS religion is not the man (meaning JS).  In dismantling the prophet you cannot dismantle the religion.

But go on...should prove to be at least somewhat entertaining.

Do you think that you would have your religion without this JS?

Certianly, yes.  Allow me to clarify my position...Joseph Smith was the instrument by which the Book of Mormon came forth.  However if he had been deemed unworthy by the Lord then there would have been another chosen for the job.  Also, it is noteworthy that Joseph often felt unworthy of the tasks placed before, not unlike Moses or any other prophet, he was a man and he knew of his own weaknesses.  My position is also demostrated by the undeniable proof that the religion continued, and thrived, after his death.  The LDS church has thrived through over a dozen different prophets, all with unique weaknesses and strengths.  Proving that it is not the man that is the religion.

This is not unique to the LDS church and is not something I offer as proof of truthfulness of the doctrine.  Has the Catholic church continued under different leadership?  Has the United States continued on through many Presidents?  Yes, yes...more examples of yes.  To imply that the LDS church is false because Joseph Smith allegedly said this or that or whatever is akin to a claim that the United States is a ridiculous government because Clinton messed around with an aid.  Akin to Catholicism being completely false because the Pope claims the Muslims are off their rocker.  The man is not the religion as much as the president is not the government and the Pope is not the Catholic church.

There has only been one perfect leader...

Well Zag, what WAS established previously?  Can we say it was lacking or not if we don't define the established methods of Jesus Christ?  If we take the word of the Bible to be true then it is abundantly clear that there were prophets.  If Joseph Smith was indeed not a prophet then who is?  Where are these prophets that were so well established by Jesus Christ?  Where are the apostles that Jesus called to minister the gospel?  Where are the miracles, the revelation, the prophecy, the instruction?  Do we not have a need to know the will of Christ at least as much as those who lived during the times of the Bible?  Where is his word now for our day for our trials and tribulations?  According to the Bible Christ never ceased to manifest himself to the people of the world.  So why does he cease to manifest himself now at least in the same manner by which he did then?

So many questions as to why what Jesus DID establish is not around today, especially when our need seems so great.

What IS lacking, Zag, are religions from the death of the Apostles to Joseph Smith that even claim to embrace all that Bible has to offer of Jesus' gospel from begining to end.  Again, I do not offer this as proof but it is certainly something that should be considered.

To imply that the LDS church is false because Joseph Smith allegedly said this or that or whatever is akin to a claim that the United States is a ridiculous government because Clinton messed around with an aid.  Akin to Catholicism being completely false because the Pope claims the Muslims are off their rocker.  The man is not the religion as much as the president is not the government and the Pope is not the Catholic church.

Actually, you are quite wrong in your analogies. To say that the LDS church is false because JS was wrong is to akin to saying that Christianity is false because Jesus was wrong.

If Jesus actually were wrong, then Christianity itself--the doctrine that Jesus was divine (and therefore incapable of being wrong)--would be wrong, wouldn't it?

Is that not what I stated: "akin to saying that Christianity is false because Jesus was wrong"?

My point is that since JS was not a prophet of God, and is therefore wrong, it is not the same as saying that Catholicism is false because the Pope is wrong. JS is the founder of another religion, as was Jesus (more-or-less), whereas the Pope is one in a succession of Christian leaders.

Their claim is that JS was merely an instrument in something already established. My claim is the he is the one who did the establishing.

Was this question answered?  I really lost track of where this thread was going.

hmmm... looks like I will have to delve into that one... but in a few days..

But whether he was convicted or not is NOT the issue with me.  It is how HIS religion compares with what was established earlier on is what concerns me.

kreil45.....Look at these scriptures.

Colossians 1:23
...If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

 24.....Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

 25..Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

 26..Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27..To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 28..Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:


The Word of God you say you follow has the Apostle Paul exorting and warning Christians to not be moved from they Good News they had already heard, the Gospel Paul continued to preach.

These scriptures also say it was given to the Apostle Paul to fulfill (make complete) the Word of God with the revelation of the mystery then revealed.

Now, how can you believe the Bible that says it's Word has been fulfilled through a  specific  Apostle (Paul) and that you shouldn't stray from what has been taught, and believe joe smith and a different message  at the same time?

Joel