Topic: General Mormon Questions (Read 62138 times)

Zagzagel · « **Reply #40 on:** November 01, 2005, 06:33:54 PM »

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As far as the translation of Lucifer I have two reasons for thinking you are wrong. First, let's just assume it is an error. I think, and I may be wrong, that it is nearly impossible to say exactly when, in time that error occurred. This matters, because if the error occurred before the prophet Nephi's time then he was not the reason for the error nor Joseph Smith.

Okay. That might be a point worth looking into. Let us consider it. IF there was a "copying" error, who was at fault? Remember that you made a claim which I am just following on, right? I am the one following up on something YOU said. I hope you don't forget that. With other words, I want to clarify and discover something you said or claimed. You said it, I read something different, so lets come to an understanding. I or you could have misunderstand something together, so together, maybe we could come out with a possible answer? Fair?

Now if that sounds fair to you, then I want to concentrate on just a portain of your paragraph...

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This matters, because if the error occurred before the prophet Nephi's time then he was not the reason for the error nor Joseph Smith.

I think this is precisely the point which we are getting to the bottom of. This is the reason why I asked my first question to you. Now here is the thing. IF the error occurred BEFORE Nephi's time, then this would not be Nephi's problem or fault. BUT, the claim is that Nephi copied the ORIGINAL words, "word for word", which contained the claim that there was no error involved but was the TRUE meaning of the words of Nephi. The claim is that Nephi's words or writings were from the "original". Here is the problem...Nephi mentions the word/name "Lucifer". The whole argument then becomes questionable to me. Why? Because, I think Jerome was the first one to translate Heylel as lucifer. I am speaking of this happening in the late third or early fourth century. Logic, then determines that any copying done of the translation of "lucifer" would have been from Jeromes translation, or other translations afterward. BUT, I don't think Jerome was trying to create, nor support any doctrine about any "Lucifer" a good angel turned bad, when he translated the Hebrew word Heylel into the word "lucifer". Do you see now why I raised this question to you and why I wanted this claim clarified?

What might be interesting is if you could show me where any writers, before Jerome, actually translate the Hebrew word "heylel" as "lucifer".

Blessings.

valerie · « **Reply #41 on:** November 02, 2005, 07:06:15 AM »

I will have to take your word for it Geegee, as far as the translation of Lucifer is concerned.

However, as I noted in my previous post I don't believe there is an error and I told you why. You believe there is. I don't think there is anything left to discuss on this, do you?

Zagzagel · « **Reply #42 on:** November 03, 2005, 07:22:00 AM »

Val. Yeah, I guess this is something I've got to look more into for myself. Thanks for playing. :D

What is the normal stance that the LDS holds concerning other religions? Will they (people of other religions) partake in any after life of blessing?

valerie · « **Reply #43 on:** November 03, 2005, 08:00:54 AM »

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What is the normal stance that the LDS holds concerning other religions? Will they (people of other religions) partake in any after life of blessing?

Yes.
Alma 41:
3 And it is requisite with the justice of God that men should be judged according to their works; and if their works were good in this life, and the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #44 on:** November 03, 2005, 01:34:34 PM »

Okay. What about those whose works were not good, or evil? What is their lot?

valerie · « **Reply #45 on:** November 03, 2005, 02:38:05 PM »

Well, quite simply the converse would be true. However, that is only part of what Mormons believe.

Allow me to expand on this since you seem interested in life after death and judgement. I will put it in my words for now. When a person dies they go to what you might call a waiting room of sorts. The people who chose to do good go to what Mormons call Paradise and those who chose bad go to Prison. This is what I believe Christians would rightly call heaven and hell. Then they wait.

Those who died before Jesus Christ waited until his death and ressurection. If they were strong believers in Christ and followed his teachings then they too were ressurected. This would include such people as Abraham, Moses, Noah, Adam, etc. What they do as ressurected beings I don't know exactly but they are documented as having appeared as what we might call Angels. The people who were not ressurected just stay where they were in Paradise or Prison for awhile longer.

Those who die after Jesus Christ's ressurection and those who were not ressurected previously wait until the Second coming of Jesus Christ as prophesied. When he returns, whenever that is, again those good people who accepted Christ's gospel will be ressurected and will have the opportunity to live with Christ as their leader for 1,000 years, along with those previously ressurected.

Once the 1,000 years is over then all the people who have not previously been ressurected will then be ressurected. It is at this time when final judgement will occur. From this point all people who ever lived will go to their final state or abode. There are different levels of life after judgement because, obviously, people differ in their level of righteousness. Only those who were true followers of Satan will be consigned to what Mormons call outer darkness, an eternal torment. Everyone else will be given a degree of glory (as we call it) in accordance with their righteousness.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #46 on:** November 03, 2005, 07:31:17 PM »

Mmmmm...interesting. There is alot there to think about. There is alot there to question or comment on. But just this one question for now.

So there are degrees of blessing for them that believe? Are there then different degrees of eternal punishment for those who don't believe?

valerie · « **Reply #47 on:** November 04, 2005, 05:57:01 AM »

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So there are degrees of blessing for them that believe?

Yes, but you don't even have to believe in Christ to receive a blessing. There is a good place for everyone, as long as you are not part of the next scenario.

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Are there then different degrees of eternal punishment for those who don't believe?

I don't know. In order to go to ourter darkness you have to be one of the following, Satan or one of his angels, a person who received a sure knowledge of Christ and still rejected him, or committed murder (which probably would have been pre-meditated). Really only God can know if someone is one of the following and I don't know if there are different levels. All I know is I don't want to go there!

ruthere · « **Reply #48 on:** November 06, 2005, 01:57:15 AM »

I hope you dont mind me entering this discussion. There are a couple of points that I would like to comment on, which are:
In reference to your discussion on Lucifer Mormon Doctrine states "The appointment of Jesus to be the Saviour of the of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty ambitious and covetous of power and glory, this spirit brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the saviour of Mankind"
(Gospel Through The Ages by Milton R. Hunter page 15)

But the real question that I would like to ask regarding all this that I have never , ever been given an answer to or an attempt to answer is that it seems that a lot of Mormon Doctrine is not supported by Mormon Scripture. Instead of supporting it , it really seems to contradict it.

I will leave a couple of examples here:

Man may commit certain grievous sins according to his light and knowledge that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be saved he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone so far as the power lies for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail.
(Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie, Page 93)

There are certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent.
(Doctrines of Salvation by Joseph Smith Vol 1, page 135)

This sets the stage for the doctrine that is taught that the blood of Christ cannot atone for all sins.

Now lets see what Mormon Scripture says on the matter.

"That He came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world and to sanctify the world and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness.
(Doctrine and Covenants 76:41)

Now this is stated quite clearly to cleanse from ALL unrighteousness.

And most if not all those of Mormon faith accept the King James version of the Bible.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from ALL sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(1John1:7 - 10)

And if you read these closely it sure looks that the Doctrine is not supported with the Scripture , even if you want to just look at the Mormon Scripture. The Scripture contradicts what the Mormon Doctrine says and that is where I and others have difficulty. If the Scripture does not support the Doctrine , what is the point.

This and a host of other doctines and contradictions from scripture are confusing and make the understanding a wonderment. Just because someone says it is so, is it ? I dont think so, research, study and pray for enlightenment so one can understand. With an open mind.

The question to you is, how is this justified,

If the Book of Mormon is to be believed should it not be steadfast and unchangeable. If this were the case then why has it gone through over three thousand changes. The latest of these are in the 1981 edition.

The Pearl of Great Price has averaged over twenty nine changes per page.

The Doctrine and Covenants has over two thousand changes. This is supposed to have been received directly from God

The Articles of Faith have undergone one hundred and twelve changes. One article was completely eliminated and another article completely changed.

This sort of puts doubt in the credibility I would think and would in a way support Geegee in his questioning of the real Joseph Smith.

I will go for now but would like response to this,

Thanks

Sam

valerie · « **Reply #49 on:** November 06, 2005, 06:17:00 AM »

Ruthere, you asked about unforgivable sins. There are two and there have always been two. In the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Read Matt 12:31-32, Mark 3:28-29, D&C 132:27, Matt 5:21, 3 Nephi 12:21, D&C 42:18,79

and more stuff...
GS Murder
Whoever sheds a man

valerie · « **Reply #50 on:** November 06, 2005, 07:01:06 AM »

One last word on unforgivable sins...

You are confusing the atonement with forgiveness.

Did Christ atone for all sins? Yes. Thus, he is the person who will give forgiveness of sins. Will he forgive the two unforgivable sins? No and he won't forgive those who don't repent of any other sin either.

A great book to read on this subject is The Miracle of Forgivenss by Spencer W. Kimball.

8d82thebone · « **Reply #51 on:** November 07, 2005, 11:18:55 AM »

Quote from: valerie

Ruthere, you asked about unforgivable sins. There are two and there have always been two. In the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

Read Matt 12:31-32, Mark 3:28-29, D&C 132:27, Matt 5:21, 3 Nephi 12:21, D&C 42:18,79

and more stuff...
GS Murder
Whoever sheds a man

valerie · « **Reply #52 on:** November 07, 2005, 12:52:01 PM »

Of course I anticipated that question 8d8, and I am glad you asked which allows me to ellaborate!

There are all kinds of reasons to kill someone, wouldn't you agree? Someone who shoots a person that breaks into his home. A person kills people during war. A boy shoots anyone to get into a gang. Perhaps you might even kill someone to keep your family from starving. There are individuals that comit mass murder such as Hitler and Stalin. People who drive around looking for women, men or children to kill. Is that enough examples?

So which is murder? I have my own idea what murder might be but that may not be Christ's idea. For instance perhaps Christ would forgive the boy who shoots to get into a gang but not Hitler. The point is that there is probably forgiveness for many killings. However, for someone who goes out of their way to deliberately hunt and kill someone despite the knowledge they have of Christ and the sanctity of life probably won't get forgiveness. I say probably because I can't assume that I know a persons heart and I am not in the business of judging people. Neither should you be.

8d82thebone · « **Reply #53 on:** November 08, 2005, 01:14:51 PM »

So how does murder differ from say, adultery as a sin, Val. If I commit adultery with the full knowledge that it is sinful, why should I recieve forgiveness any more or less completely than if I were to go out and gun innocent people down in cold blood? Doesn't Revelation tell us that adulterers among others, will find themselves in the lake of fire?

valerie · « **Reply #54 on:** November 09, 2005, 02:01:58 PM »

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Doesn't Revelation tell us that adulterers among others, will find themselves in the lake of fire?

Yeah, if you don't repent. I already said that a few posts ago...

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Will he forgive the two unforgivable sins? No and he won't forgive those who don't repent of any other sin either.

valerie · « **Reply #55 on:** November 14, 2005, 05:04:52 PM »

Hmmm...no one wants to talk to the mormon anymore

Zagzagel · « **Reply #56 on:** November 14, 2005, 05:34:25 PM »

Yes, I do. I've been away..busy these days. I've just caught up on the posts here. I'll be back with some thoughts or questions in a day or two. But one thing caught my attention in our earlier discussion which interests me. I will ask about that for now and its more a personal question.

Concerning our discussion of the afterlife, you made the comment that you "don't want to go there" (or something like that) - you know -- the place of eternal punishment.

I gather that this is one motive that causes you to serve God? What are your other reasons to serve God? Would the fear of eternal punishment be your strongest motive?

valerie · « **Reply #57 on:** November 14, 2005, 05:45:53 PM »

Yeah! I thought I scared you all away!

It is happiness that motivates me! I am not afraid of eternal d--nation! It is not what I would choose for myself and ultimately that is who goes there, the person who, despite much in the way of convincing, chooses not to be with God. I choose happiness, joy, right here, right now. That is my motivation.

To quote Sherly Crow...If it makes you happy, it can't be that bad.

The trick is finding true happiness.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #58 on:** November 14, 2005, 06:06:00 PM »

Hi Val. I hope you do not mind me just being a little more personal here. After all, this thread is about questions of Mormonism. You are the queen of decisions here.

(It's quite easy for me seeing you as queen

)

Okay. What IS happiness? Look at all the differing religions. There are those who seeeeem to be happy...and there are those who seeeem to be the unhappy. Should a truth be based on how experiencially happy one is? Say...a killer really enjoys killing..it makes him ...well..happy..is that possible? And would it mean he/she is unto something good? I know..I know..not the best example..but what of this happiness?

valerie · « **Reply #59 on:** November 15, 2005, 06:51:36 AM »

I feel like a queen now that I have my own emoticon...

Happiness...I am a firm beleiver that sin does not supply a person with happiness. Take for example the killer, that is more like an addiction, an adrenaline rush. It doesn't last long hence the reason for continuous killings. No, my definition of happiness would be something that fulfills you. Doesn't leave you hungry for more, like an addiction might.

I love the story of the women at the well...John 4
Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

That is how I view happiness, it will fill and overflow. You will give happiness away because you have been filled to overflowing. Sin consumes and destroys, it could never be real happiness. Although it may be percieved as such for a short period of time. However, true happiness lasts a lifetime, you never forget how it felt and you can draw on it at any time.

Author Topic: General Mormon Questions (Read 62138 times)