Topic: Mormans are Christains (2) (Read 5272 times)

kat88622825 · « **on:** October 13, 2005, 01:06:42 PM »

I have started another one cause the other was getting full.

Ragnar · « **Reply #1 on:** October 13, 2005, 02:14:21 PM »

I said don't know, mainly because I have no idea what a Christain is. If you meant Christian, that is an entirely different matter

I think anyone who wants to consider themselves a Christian is free to do so, as long as they don't try to get other people to believe as they do.

TheAtheistHeratic · « **Reply #2 on:** October 13, 2005, 02:30:34 PM »

valerie · « **Reply #3 on:** October 17, 2005, 04:44:31 PM »

If I weren't so bored at work I would not have even responded. I answered "don't know". Based on a Catholic view I guess Mormons aren't Christians. Based on the foundations of the Mormon/LDS church I would say that they are Christians.

I don't see why the question even matters in any social circle. If they are or they aren't what difference does it make? Unless, perhaps, they are correct in their beliefs.

kat88622825 · « **Reply #4 on:** October 17, 2005, 07:37:10 PM »

Before people start assuming that mormons aren't christains they need to make sure thier facts are straight

Apollos · « **Reply #5 on:** October 17, 2005, 08:07:19 PM »

Okay, let's get our facts straight. This is copied from the other thread:

Quote from: kat

Your not getting what Im saying here Apollos. Im not good at wording my words. Here, let me tell you this: I have not personally talked to Christ, I have not walked with Christ, I have not evaluated Him; so therefore I can't give an exact diff. of who Christ really is.

I understand perfectly what you are saying. It seems that you are not understanding what I am saying or asking. The Bible clearly states many things about Jesus' nature and the BoM states some things as well. In fact, the question I have been asking you is exactly what he asked his disciples:

Matthew 16:13-17,20, "13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven....20 Then He warned the disciples that they should tell no one that He was the Christ'"

As I have stated, and what is clearly shown in this passage, is that who Jesus is is of central importance. How can one claim to be a follower of Christ if they don't know who he even is or make him out to be something he is not? You stated that you have not evaluated him, so how can you claim to be his follower if you do not even know who he is?

I don't follow Satan because I know who he is. I am a follower of Christ because I know who he is.

Quote from: kat

I do know that He is a leader above all people. Does that answer you question?

That is a part answer, but then you would have to define what you mean by "a leader above all people". Also, as I stated above, there are many things the Bible says about him which must be taken into consideration.

So who do you say that Jesus is?

TheAtheistHeratic · « **Reply #6 on:** October 18, 2005, 02:41:25 PM »

I think I will just sit back and relax. After this sntjonny may saying Jehovess witness's aren't christian.

valerie · « **Reply #7 on:** October 18, 2005, 04:39:39 PM »

Of course it is important to know who Jesus Christ is. He is the saviour. He bore the sins and sorrows of the world both physically and spritiually. He is the Son of God, thus bearing God like attributes himself. He also was the first human to be resurected and provided that wonderful gift to all mankind. I could go on for awhile...

If you don't believe in the above definition then I would hazard a guess that you are not a Christian. Of course this is probably a liberal definition of a Christian but I still think it is sound. Great scripture Apollos quoted, one of my personal favorites.

As for Mormons...they adhere to the above definition and much more.

Apollos · « **Reply #8 on:** October 18, 2005, 06:28:48 PM »

Quote from: TheAtheistHeratic

After this sntjonny may saying Jehovess witness's aren't christian.

I'll beat him to it - JW's are not Christian. Claiming to be a Christian does not make one a Christian.

It continually amazes me how atheists just don't get it.

Quote from: valerie

He is the Son of God, thus bearing God like attributes himself.

He is the Son of God, therefore, he is God.

Quote from: valerie

As for Mormons...they adhere to the above definition and much more.

But you first would have to prove that the above definition defines what a Christian is or what one ought to believe as a Christian.

The problem is that Mormons make it sound like they adhere to many doctrines and beliefs that are Christian, but we all know (at least the theists) that this is not the case. They are similar on the surface, but are fundamentally different at the core.

An interesting tidbit is that God told Joseph Smith to not join any church because they were all an abomination, if I remember correctly. So he started his own based on supposed plates which were translated into the BoM. Now Mormons are tyring to be accepted as a Christian denomination. This leads me to wonder what has changed. It sure wasn't orthodox Christian doctrine or practice. That only leaves 1) God lied, or 2) Joseph Smith lied.

Of course, if neither 1 nor 2 are true it means that Mormons don't think that traditional Christians are Christian, they are the only ones. So why do Christians get bashed for saying that Mormons aren't Christian when Mormons think they are the only Christians?

valerie · « **Reply #9 on:** October 18, 2005, 07:27:19 PM »

There are probably more than 1,000 definitions as to what a Christian is. I doubt any of them could be proven to the satisfaction of a non believer. In fact, I doubt very much that the definition of a Christian and thus the labeling of so called followers means much in the big scheme of things. The decision of this forum may be that Mormons and others are not Christians but I doubt those 15 million or so people really care what has been decided here.

As for the bashing...I thought the basis of this forum was to bash the Mormons for not being Christians? There is even a poll to decide this matter! I haven't yet seen a forum for deciding whether Catholics are Christian.

Suffice it to say Apollos definition of a Christian does not allow for certain groups of people to be labeled as such. Fine the world goes on. I would rather decide for myself based on a persons acts of charity whether or not they are a Christian.

cimics · « **Reply #10 on:** October 18, 2005, 08:40:54 PM »

Quote

As for the bashing...I thought the basis of this forum was to bash the Mormons for not being Christians? There is even a poll to decide this matter! I haven't yet seen a forum for deciding whether Catholics are Christian.

Actually, when you start a new thread, one of the options let's you create a poll. Kat started this thread, and she is a Mormon.

I would also point out that while this subforum is about Mormonism, the entire Defend and Debate forum goes way beyond that. Probably more effort is spent debating atheists than anyone else. But there are a diverse bunch here, including universalists and a Noahide. And sometimes, especially in the ethics forum, debates may occur on political or social issues, and whatnot. Feel free to join in.

8d82thebone · « **Reply #11 on:** October 18, 2005, 11:03:00 PM »

Quote from: valerie

There are probably more than 1,000 definitions as to what a Christian is. I doubt any of them could be proven to the satisfaction of a non believer. In fact, I doubt very much that the definition of a Christian and thus the labeling of so called followers means much in the big scheme of things. The decision of this forum may be that Mormons and others are not Christians but I doubt those 15 million or so people really care what has been decided here.

As for the bashing...I thought the basis of this forum was to bash the Mormons for not being Christians? There is even a poll to decide this matter! I haven't yet seen a forum for deciding whether Catholics are Christian.

Suffice it to say Apollos definition of a Christian does not allow for certain groups of people to be labeled as such. Fine the world goes on. I would rather decide for myself based on a persons acts of charity whether or not they are a Christian.

OK, fine to all of the above for now, but just to clarify some things for me a bit Val- what do Mormons believe exactly, regarding heaven, hell etc.?

valerie · « **Reply #12 on:** October 19, 2005, 06:17:05 AM »

In answer to the question...

Quote

OK, fine to all of the above for now, but just to clarify some things for me a bit Val- what do Mormons believe exactly, regarding heaven, hell etc.?

Let's go strait to the pinacle source of Mormon doctirine, The Book Of Mormon. From the Book of Alma Chapter 40 (numbers denote verses, I have cut and pasted a few verses the entire text is online at www.lds.org):

11. Now, concerning the state

TheAtheistHeratic · « **Reply #13 on:** October 19, 2005, 02:28:15 PM »

Quote from: Apollos

Quote from: TheAtheistHeratic
After this sntjonny may saying Jehovess witness's aren't christian.

I'll beat him to it - JW's are not Christian. Claiming to be a Christian does not make one a Christian.

It continually amazes me how atheists just don't get it.

I disagree naturally. Have you ever met a JW?

Zagzagel · « **Reply #14 on:** October 19, 2005, 04:28:54 PM »

I have met JW's. I've spoken to them. As a matter of fact, our best family member is a JW. Besides, I study JW doctrine...or did intensly in the past...only because I wanted to verify what I heard the "christians" had to say about them. And their doctrines are interesting....and I can say with confidence that they are not "christian" according to the standard snt.johnny is raising. Do you get that stardart yet?

Apollos · « **Reply #15 on:** October 19, 2005, 09:07:39 PM »

Quote from: TheAtheistHeratic

I disagree naturally. Have you ever met a JW?

Like geegee, I have studied fairly intensely the doctrines and histories of both Mormons and JWs. I have also have members of both groups into my home on several occasions, as well as friends' houses. So, yes, I've met many JWs, and Mormons.

Quote from: valerie

In fact, I doubt very much that the definition of a Christian and thus the labeling of so called followers means much in the big scheme of things.

On the contrary, it could mean absolutely everything. If, as I am proposing (as has all of Christendom since the earliest of times), that salvation is contingent on believing in only one God and that that God manifested in the flesh, then the definition means everything. One cannot choose to make Christ into something he is not and still claim to be a follower of his.

Quote from: valerie

Suffice it to say Apollos definition of a Christian does not allow for certain groups of people to be labeled as such.

And that is precisely why the early Church used such definitions. It defined them against those who taught a different Christ and different gospel.

I am curious as to why you didn't comment on the last half of my previous post. Why the change in attitude of the LDS?

8d82thebone · « **Reply #16 on:** October 19, 2005, 10:36:11 PM »

Quote from: valerie

In answer to the question...

Quote
OK, fine to all of the above for now, but just to clarify some things for me a bit Val- what do Mormons believe exactly, regarding heaven, hell etc.?

Let's go strait to the pinacle source of Mormon doctirine, The Book Of Mormon. From the Book of Alma Chapter 40 (numbers denote verses, I have cut and pasted a few verses the entire text is online at www.lds.org):

11. Now, concerning the state

SoughtFound&Alive · « **Reply #17 on:** October 20, 2005, 12:32:27 AM »

Quote from: Ragnar

I said don't know, mainly because I have no idea what a Christain is. If you meant Christian, that is an entirely different matter

I think anyone who wants to consider themselves a Christian is free to do so, as long as they don't try to get other people to believe as they do.

Funny, I think anyone who wants to consider themselves an atheist is free to do so, as long as they don't try to get other people to believe as they do.

valerie · « **Reply #18 on:** October 20, 2005, 05:42:58 AM »

Apollos wanted me to address the following statement. I will do my best but I am sure I will fall short of his need for proof.

Quote

An interesting tidbit is that God told Joseph Smith to not join any church because they were all an abomination, if I remember correctly. So he started his own based on supposed plates which were translated into the BoM. Now Mormons are tyring to be accepted as a Christian denomination. This leads me to wonder what has changed. It sure wasn't orthodox Christian doctrine or practice. That only leaves 1) God lied, or 2) Joseph Smith lied.

First, you have the story somewhat wrong. It is true that God told Joseph not to join any of the churches. It is false that he started his own based on "supposed plates". And that is exactly where Apollos' need for proof will kick in. If you do not believe that Joseph Smith was directed by God to translate the Book of Mormon. That the plates were given to him by an angel of the Lord then either answer Apollos suggested could be true. Apollos logic is sound but not based on a beliver of the nature of the Book of Mormon.

Thus, if the Book of Mormon was given to Joseph Smith by an angel and he was directed in its translation by Jesus Christ then neither God lied nor Joseph smith lied. Hence, the church was established by Jesus Christ and remains his complete and true church here upon the earth. There has never been a change of attitude that the Mormons believed they are Christians. They have always believed that their Church was founded and is currently run by Christ and thus comes their foundation that they are Christians.

A quote from 8d82thebone:

Quote

So now that being said, where would the above statements leave the founder of your religion (Joseph Smith)? I understand that he was incarcerated in Illinois over the destruction of a printing press whose owner printed something derogatory about him. And apparently that wasn't quite enough so he smuggled a pistol into his cell and managed to cap three other prisoners during a riot? Is this true?

I am not an authority on Mormon history thus I cannot answer as to the truthfulness of the story. Nor am I going to pass a final judgement call on the worthiness of Joseph Smith, I will leave that to God, where it belongs.

I think enough dirty deeds went around during that 50 years or so. Citizens of three states destroyed all of the Mormon believers property and many of the people themselves. Joseph Smith himself was repeatedly persecuted via the means of being tarred and feather etc. by mobs to the culmination of his incarceration in the Carthage jail where he was murdered by another mob. Extermination orders were ordered that allowed anyone to shoot a Mormon on site. Many deeds call into question peoples ability to be saved or exalted. I say we leave that for God to decide who knows people best.

8d82thebone · « **Reply #19 on:** October 20, 2005, 06:45:31 AM »

OK you're right lets leave poor misunderstood Joseph alone he's suffered enough... so lets talk about Brigham Young instead shall we.
It seems he went off the deep end with some of his teachings (he tried to claim that there was life on the sun, among other things ?) and the Mormons denounce some of them. So is he a true prophet then?

Author Topic: Mormans are Christains (2) (Read 5272 times)