Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Mormon Gospel vs the Christian Gospel?  (Read 7223 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Anthony Horvath

  • Administrator
  • sntjohnny? I'm sntjohnny!
  • *
  • Feedback: +28/-41
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8493
    • http://www.sntjohnny.com
Mormon Gospel vs the Christian Gospel?
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2005, 04:19:16 PM »

I am more than happy to consider all of the passages.  However, you're really painted a pretty bitter picture.  I produced some pretty explicit passages that denounced the notion that our works contribute to our salvation. You do not dispute these passages.

Let's say that I don't dispute your passages.

What have we got?  A Gospel that says on the one hand works don't save you, and on the other hand, works save you.

If this was the case, I wouldn't bother with Christianity at all.  Or Mormonism.  Or anything that had anything to do with the New Testatment.  If it contradicts itself so soundly on the subject that forms the center of its philosophy, its not worth investing any time with.

Any Gospel of works is no 'good news' at all.  I look at the world, and I see validation of Paul's claims (derived from the OT) in Romans 3:10-23.  I look at myself and see the that Paul is speaking the truth, too, in regards to my own self.  If you ever managed to convince me that the NT actually did require us to do something, I would not be happy, or pleased, or impressed.  I would be despair.  How hard do I need to work?  How do I know I have done enough?  Have I done enough?

A Gospel of works is a gospel of selfishness, ultimately.  I, I, I, I, I.  A gospel of Grace says, "I got you covered:  you can think of others."

As you can see in the above statement, 'works' are not unimportant.  They are implied in 'you can think of others.'  But the freedom to think of others is derived from the assurance that my self has been effectively and firmly established.

I do not do good works out of fear that if I don't, I am not saved.  I do good works out of thankfulness of being saved.  It's a completely different paradigm.

You might say that you don't do good works out of fear, either.  Really?  That tells me you are aware of some general criteria.  For example, just how deep must my repentance go?  Each night, should I delineate each and every sin to the minute detail and superb self-torture?  Tell me (this is just an example) at what point do I simply cast myself into the grace of God?  I feel before I consider the possibility of a 'gospel of works' that I would need to know where this point is, if it exists at all.
Logged
Today's Favorite Quote:  "The UN is like GI Joe - an organization with the goal of world peace. Difference being one of them actually achieves their goals."  EndBringer

Yesterday's Fav: "I love when it all comes down to semantics, because that usually means I get to pwn someone."  Sir Somebody Something, Deep Truth, Trent, Solaris Paradox

valerie

  • Predominant User
  • *
  • Feedback: +0/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 546
Mormon Gospel vs the Christian Gospel?
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2005, 04:23:43 PM »

Allow me to continue...

Quote
I mainly refer to how Mormons use the same language as Christians, call themselves Christians, and spend a lot of time reaching out to the disaffected Christians out there, who are unaware that the words Mormons use sometimes have different meanings and if Mormons are 'Christian' its in a different sense then what is traditionally understood. This allows some people to be comfortable exploring Mormonism, where the chances are good otherwise that the Mormon apologist would not find a hearing at all.

Ah, so you think we are using the word "Christian" as a covert means to get our foot in the door?  Couldn't it be that we just might actually think that we ARE Christians?  Maybe not according to your definition or even the Pope's but whose to say what is "traditionally" understood?  I know a lot of Christians who don't have a clue what the creeds say.

By the way what is an apologist?

Quote
In other words, Mormonism's information comes from a source that cannot even in principle be tested or corroborated. As important as it might be to check various aspects of Mormonism for accuracy to the real world, I'm saying that even if it checked out in every case, the source of the information itself is completely cloaked. Since we allow that there can be angels of deception, and we have little way to check this particular angel, we can in intellectual integrity decline to believe in Mormonism.

Here is the real issue.  Is there a way to test the Mormon gospel credibility?  
There is.  Take for example going to a new dining establishment.  You are unsure what to order because you don't know if it will be good.  Being the gastronomically brave person you are, you order anyway and dig in.  There are only two possible outcomes to this experiment.  Either it will taste good to you or it will not.  The message here is you must experience a dish before you can make an assertion that said dish is good or bad.  My suggestion to you is that you must experience the Mormon gospel before you decide what is good or bad about it.  You have only looked at the menu, Sntjohnny.  I am sure you have taken the time to look at all of the ingredients as well.  But even I will concede that I hated green peppers before I tasted them!
Logged

valerie

  • Predominant User
  • *
  • Feedback: +0/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 546
Mormon Gospel vs the Christian Gospel?
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2005, 04:46:33 PM »

It seems we were posting at the same time...

Quote
What have we got? A Gospel that says on the one hand works don't save you, and on the other hand, works save you.

No, what we have is a gospel that says Christ saved you and you owe him whatever he asks of you if you want that gift to remain.

Quote
If it contradicts itself so soundly on the subject that forms the center of its philosophy, its not worth investing any time with.

It doesn't contradict itself.  If you look back at the keys I listed you will note that to HAVE faith you don't actually have to "do" anything.  To SHOW faith you do have to "do" something.  Christ still atoned for our sins and that didn't require us to "do" anything.  He does however require something of us if we are to have his mercy and forgiveness.

Quote
If you ever managed to convince me that the NT actually did require us to do something, I would not be happy, or pleased, or impressed. I would be despair. How hard do I need to work? How do I know I have done enough? Have I done enough?

There is only dispair when you don't exercise repentance.  Through Christ's forgiveness comes peace and assurance that you have done all that you can.  Much of repentance has to do with serving others.  Making amends for past wrongs.  It is not selfishness.  But it does leave you with the realization that you are completely in need of the Savior and his atonement.
Logged

valerie

  • Predominant User
  • *
  • Feedback: +0/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 546
Mormon Gospel vs the Christian Gospel?
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2005, 05:43:07 PM »

I forgot to address this...
Quote
You might say that you don't do good works out of fear, either. Really? That tells me you are aware of some general criteria. For example, just how deep must my repentance go? Each night, should I delineate each and every sin to the minute detail and superb self-torture? Tell me (this is just an example) at what point do I simply cast myself into the grace of God? I feel before I consider the possibility of a 'gospel of works' that I would need to know where this point is, if it exists at all.

Repentance and the Holy Ghost are the big tickets here.  There are steps to repentance: sorrow for sin, admission to God and anyone effected by your actions and ask for forgiveness, restitution as far as possible (you can't replace a candy bar you stole and ate but you can pay for it), commit to never repeat the sin.  You can just check those off as you go down the list.  However, you still won't KNOW you did all you could.  This assurance comes from the Holy Ghost who will let you know in some form or another that your repentance is acceptable to God.  You will feel peace and a strengthened resolve to not commit the sin again.  If you fall short the Holy Ghost will also inspire you with the actions that you need to do to fulfill your repentance.
Logged

lynnardz

  • User
  • *
  • Feedback: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1
Mormon Gospel vs the Christian Gospel?
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2006, 11:51:18 AM »

Valerie you state

"There are steps to repentance: sorrow for sin, admission to God and anyone effected by your actions and ask for forgiveness, restitution as far as possible

(First some history I am an ex-mormon)  I too believe these are the steps to repentance.  Unfortunately, as a LDS church member you left out one step.  That is going to your bishop and discussing your trangression with him.  This I believe takes away from your personal relationship with God. I also believe it is no one elses business but yours and Gods and the person you trangressed against.  As with any good mormon you are very good at quoting scripture, but all too many times there is no personal relationship there.  I as a mormon was taught to believe more in man such as Joe Smith, BY, whoever the prophet was at the time, my bishop, instead of having a personal relationship with the Father.
Logged

Zagzagel

  • Superior User!!
  • *
  • Feedback: +5/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2962
    • Kats Adventures
Mormon Gospel vs the Christian Gospel?
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2006, 09:33:23 PM »

Welcome, lynnardz.

This should be interesting.  My view is totally different..and much hard to be understood.  But your post is interesting and looking forward to how this develops.

G.
Logged
Cheers.  :)  Be well.  Live better!

vicki h

  • User
  • *
  • Feedback: +0/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
mormonism
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2006, 11:21:28 AM »

Did not read all arguments, much too long, but would like to add my 2 cents! Number one, who was Joseph smith and why did we need him when Jesus came and FULFILLED THE LAW! He did not need anyone vto come after and add to the law. Also Bible clearly states you will not be saved by your works, our works are as filthy rags to our lord1 There is only ONE God, his name is Jesus Christ! The word was god, the word was made flesh and dwelt among us ane we knew him not! Hello!!!!! The way to salvation is clearly stated in acts, repent and be baptized in THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST for the remission of sins! Then the Spirit will guide you. That does not guarantee heaven! But i sure as heck am going to do what my lord jesus commanded! and the way his apostles taught to do it considerinf they were taught and spent time with the Master. The bible  tells us many of the elect will even be fooled by evildoers using the name of Jesus to do miracles. There are many false religions. as far as i am concerned The old and new testaments are the 2 books joined together that contain the whole truth. the rest are unnecessary, including book of mormon. the bible is the complete work of the one and onlt TRUE GOD! the rest is the devils work and he throws jesus in there to fool people, and people are easily fooled and love to do things their way and the easy way1
Logged

Stathei

  • Guest
Mormon Gospel vs the Christian Gospel?
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2006, 06:53:58 PM »

[athiestsaremuyloco

Why do RELIGIOUS MANIACS always use UPPER CASE when they speak NONSENSE. It makes them SOUND even more CRAZY.
Logged

Bdean

  • Regular User
  • *
  • Feedback: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 177
Mormon Gospel vs the Christian Gospel?
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2006, 07:13:17 PM »

Chuck...Stathei - Calm down and put your shirt back on.  :wink:
Logged

valerie

  • Predominant User
  • *
  • Feedback: +0/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 546
Mormon Gospel vs the Christian Gospel?
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2006, 01:05:03 PM »

AREN'T WE ALL RELIGIOUS MANIACS?  Or maybe that is just when we speak nonsense, who determines that by the way?
Logged

Zagzagel

  • Superior User!!
  • *
  • Feedback: +5/-2
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2962
    • Kats Adventures
Mormon Gospel vs the Christian Gospel?
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2006, 09:54:31 PM »

ME a maniac???  NOOO way dude!!

I did make a new friend, elsewhere... and he is....drumroll...  MORMON!!  

Maybe I am a maniac afterall... bwahahahaha

:)
Logged
Cheers.  :)  Be well.  Live better!

valerie

  • Predominant User
  • *
  • Feedback: +0/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 546
Mormon Gospel vs the Christian Gospel?
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2006, 07:50:35 AM »

Zagzagel...you are just a Mormon waiting to happen! :wink:
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
 

More Details