Copernicus:

But I don't really understand current Mormon policy on interracial relationships. That policy does seem racist to me.

What policy?  Where?

I have seen pro-LDS web sites that meander around this question a lot before actually admitting that the church currently discourages interracial marriages.

If it isn't on www.lds.org then it is not an LDS Church policy nor should it say that it is.

I have serious doubts as to the validity of your claims here.  Especially since I know several interracial Mormon couples that were married in the Temple.

Copernicus:

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But I don't really understand current Mormon policy on interracial relationships. That policy does seem racist to me.

What policy?  Where?

It is mentioned on some Mormon websites (e.g. John Walsh's Interracial Marriage page).  It certainly was a policy to discourage such relationships in the past.  I was just wondering whether the LDS still officially discourages interracial marriages.  I get mixed messages on that.

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I have seen pro-LDS web sites that meander around this question a lot before actually admitting that the church currently discourages interracial marriages.

If it isn't on www.lds.org then it is not an LDS Church policy nor should it say that it is.

That's a good point, and I know that modern church leaders have worked hard to dispell (if not whitewash) past policy on such relations.  It is often said that Brigham Young was openly racist (although early Mormons tended to be abolitionists) and the writings of Bruce R. McConkie are often cited as evidence of overt racism until recent times.  

I have serious doubts as to the validity of your claims here.  Especially since I know several interracial Mormon couples that were married in the Temple.

Do any of these couples include African Americans?  I'm glad to hear that such marriages are now openly accepted.  Have you ever seen any statements by church officials that seemed racist?


Let's not forget that there was some scriptural basis for the racist policies that followed historically, at least against Native Americans.  The "Lamanites" were singled out 2 Nephi 5:21-23:

"And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.

And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey.

Yeah, not really sure that "discouraging" would be a racist policy.  If, as Valerie said, they claim it wrong and don't allow it then yes I could see some racism in that policy.  But simply discouraging it may only mean the church thinks mixing two dramatically different cultures in one family may not always be the wisest thing.

Hi, Valerie.  I noticed that you did not answer my query about those interracial marriages that you knew about.  Did any involve an African American?  As I pointed out, LDS doctrine has been criticized for stigmatizing African Americans over all other racial groups except perhaps Native Americans (called "Lamanites" in LDS scripture).

First:  Let me hightlight a few of your words "policy to discourage".  Just so all the folks here don't get confused (and they JUMP at any opportunity to get confused), discourage/encourage and command are very different things.  Discouraging someone is giving advice.  Commanding someone implies just consequences, perhaps even eternal, if not followed.

I understand and agree.  Has it been your experience that the LDS church discourages interracial marriages?

Second:  Take into context the counsel that was given, for example Kimball and McConkie.  It was probably very good advice to stay away from a multiracial marriage during the 60's.  People were killing each other over race.  Marriage is hard enough without say, for example, my daughter being attacked as she walks down the street because she married a black man.  Fortunately, most of that kind of physical force has diminished but still exists.

Actually, I knew interracial couples in the 1960's.  I would say that their marriages were made difficult by societal bigotry, but I would not expect a church institution to condone such bigotry.  Marriage for such couples is hard, so I would expect the church to strongly support and defend such marriages, as long as the married couple are truly devoted to each other and the family.  The problem is that the LDS church has a history of fomenting racial separatism, particularly against Native Americans (Lamanites) and African Americans.  Surely you do not deny that history, do you?  Modern LDS doctrine is much changed on the subject of mixed-race marriage from what it was in the days of Brigham Young.  Am I not correct on that point?

Third:  The counsel given did not in any way imply that black people, or any other race, were sinners.  You could also include in that the counsel to not marry outside of the LDS faith.  You should avoid it because of the difficulties it may present in a marriage.  Not because the afore mentioned people are sinners.

I did not say that I thought the policy of discouraging such marriages was based on sin.  

Fourth:  On an individual basis that advice may still be relevent.  Take for example, a black woman, in 2005, who decides to date a white man despite the deluge of hate she gets from her family.  If she does marry said white man, she will need a great reserve of strength to face family hatred and keep her marriage from suffering as a result of that hate.

Thankfully, interracial marriage does not always face such irrational hatred in 2005 as it once did.  Nevertheless, I would expect the LDS church to be more concerned about the hatred than the loving relationship that foments it.  This is what bothers me.  Why don't they go after the parents and others for condemning the marriage on purely racial grounds?  By attempting to discourage the marital union, they seem to be siding with the bigots.

On a final note don't forget a one of the lines you quoted earlier...

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And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

There was forgiveness for the lamanites and later in the BoM, for some, the curse is taken away.  The lord's ways are not our ways.  He has a greater vision of what is going on.

Again, I have a real problem with this.  What does race have to do with it?  I would expect the "loathesome" business to apply to people of any race (although I have problems with the idea of a benevolent God behaving in such a hateful way).  Why single out the "Lamanite" race?  Do Mormons believe that God really cares about racial membership?  Are some races superior to others in the eyes of God?  I'm seriously interested in your answer to that question.  What is your opinion?

Valerie, thanks for your replies.  You have set yourself up as a defender of LDS here, and I appreciate your time and patience.  Naturally, you will get some tough questions from those of us who are skeptics, but I think we are all here to expose our beliefs to criticism and challenge.

Yes, some of those couples are African American and white.  I am not 100% positive, but I do believe the church has discouraged interracial marriages due to difficulties in marriage.

Earlier you had said that there was no such policy, and you will not find any mention of it on www.lds.org.  Nevertheless, there does seem to be a  policy of sorts to discourage mixed-race marriages.  What else could Spencer Kimball have intended when he said the following?  We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs. (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.303)

Although many church members do not see this as a racist policy, it comes against the historical backdrop of rather extreme racial policies, e.g. denying the priesthood to those of African ancestry until 1978.  That decision came at a time when social conditions in America would no longer tolerate such open bigotry, although the church leaders claimed to have received the revelation from God rather than the news media.  

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I would not expect a church institution to condone such bigotry.

Neither would I and I don't believe the LDS has condoned such bigotry.

In fact, it has in the past, and church leaders have had to deal with that awful legacy.  The problem is how to do it without admitting that allegedly infallible teachings in the past have really been fallible.  It isn't just an embarrassment.  It leads inevitably to the conclusion that current teachings might also be fallible.  That is the dilemma facing the LDS church as it struggles to confront its past errors.

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The problem is that the LDS church has a history of fomenting racial separatism, particularly against Native Americans (Lamanites) and African Americans. Surely you do not deny that history, do you? Modern LDS doctrine is much changed on the subject of mixed-race marriage from what it was in the days of Brigham Young. Am I not correct on that point?

I don't deny anything I know.  I really can't answer that question for you because I don't know.  In my lifetime (about 32 years) I have never seen or heard racism from the prophets.

That's a fair point, but nothing prevents you from checking the facts.  Modern prophets may refrain from such language, but it is in plain sight from historical writings.  Here are just three quotes from past prophets:

"Had I anything to do with the negro , I would confine them by strict law to their own species and put them on a national equalization." (Joseph Smith.  First Prophet)

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Brigham Young, Second Prophet.  Journal of Discourses, 10:110)

"The negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow therefrom..." (Joseph Fielding Smith, 10th Prophet.  Mormon Doctrine, p.527, 1966 ed.)

I don't want to belabor this point more other than to say that the current policy of discouraging mixed-race marriage seems to have evolved out of a much more overt racist policy.  The modern LDS church has made progress, but it does need to admit past errors in this matter.  I have no idea how it can do so without giving up the doctrine of historical infallibility.  As much as I respect the modern LDS church for its many good deeds, it has also engaged in some pretty disingenuous behavior in order to maintain a false sense of infallibility.

Please, go to www.lds.org and do a search on hate, bigotry, love, marriage, whatever you can think of and read the articles.

Thank you for the suggestion.  I have done that.  It naturally presents the modern LDS church in the best light, since it is a source of modern doctrine.  One needs to go to other sources to uncover the information that does not show the religion in its best light.

Here is a quote direct from the Prophet, Gordon B. Hinkley:

Good luck on your quest for truth Copernicus.

And, likewise, I wish you luck with the truth that you think you have found.