Trinitarians do believe that Jesus has always been..never created.

Well, there is probably some debate among Mormons that God organized the matter that was "us".  That that matter always existed and God just put some form to it.  In this sense Jesus' did always exist.  I am not sure which would be right.  God creating us or our matter existing and God organizing it.

How long have you been practicing the Morman faith?
Does your family follow mormanisn??

For about 24 years now.  If by family you mean my parents and siblings, it is about 50 percent of them that are members.  My husband is a member also, going on 7 years now.

Our first wedding wasn't.  We had a civil ceremony in our chapel.  Later on we did go to the Temple for a "Temple Marriage" (just letting you know what it is really called).

My eldest brother does go to some other church.  He even teaches there!  I wanted to go to one of his services but I live far away.  I couldn't arrange it the last time I visited.  Soon though.  He is the only one out of "the other half" that I know goes to church at all.

This is a good question for General Mormon questions.  I hate to hide it in this particular thread.  I will answer it there if you don't mind.

Hi, VAl.  Let me clarify my last post.  What I am suggesting is that a truth was already established eons ago...that is, during the first century.  Many explainations have been bourne since that time of what the truth means.  How does one tell truth from the lies?  How does one tell truth from error?

You believe that the bible is truth?  Yet this was written about 2000 years prior to the Mormon scriptures.  Which one would you put more trust in?  Lets say that you're answer would allow the both to be posited as the full truth.  But what IF those two contradict each other?  Take into consideration our previous discussion about the claim of the passage dealing with the "lucifer" title or name.

Regardless of whether God organized the matter that was us or just created us still makes God our father and the father of Jesus Christ. We wouldn't be around in our present form without God's intervention or invention. Thus I don't really care which is the truth. I don't think the distinction really matters to salvation.

Val.  I haven't even yet attempted to ask the harder questions.  Relax, girl friend.  You have a desire to appreciate and serve God.  God sees that.  God accepts you.  Is that cool or what???

You say something not found in any writing that I have read.  So..just your opinion then?  That is fine with me if this is just your current understanding.  Those currrent understandingw can be changed to a better current understanding.

That is actually quite wonderful.  This is the norm for me.  I find that my view changes daily.  BUT...my view changes ONLY because it must fit the pattern found in the scriptures..the ORIGINAL scriptures.

Happy to say..enough said for now!!

It is enough for me to know that God is the father of my spirit. That he is the father of Jesus Christ's spirit and body. That gives me enough to go on!

Since we are discussing Jesus, then that is what I will be concentrating on for now.

The Christian claim is that Jesus neither has a beginning or ending.  Jesus was always there.  Uncreated and has always been.  God OF God.

Lets look at something you quoted.

D&C 93: 29
Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Now, if this quote is speaking of Jesus the Christ, then I would directly have no problem with it.  Except John 1 speaks of that "Man" as Jesus.

And if you understand this quote as to mean..

I said..
 
Trinitarians do believe that Jesus has always been..never created.

You said..

Well, there is probably some debate among Mormons that God organized the matter that was "us". That that matter always existed and God just put some form to it. In this sense Jesus' did always exist. I am not sure which would be right. God creating us or our matter existing and God organizing it.

Since the question previously asked was about Jesus, you seem to have equated Jesus with "us" in the sense that Jesus and us are distinguished from THE GOD who created and made us all.

So that leads me to ponder the idea that you do not think that Jesus is the God who created and made all things...unless Jesus was first fashioned to do such a task.  Is this fairly accurate?

With other words, God needed or wanted to fashion (organize?) the pre-existing matter into a being who would create the heavens and earth?

I know this sounds silly...perhaps because what you said creates a such a picture in my head.  Anyways, afterall, I am just as ignorant as the next person and I was not there to witness the beginning of things.

But I do know, from comparing your thoughts from the NT writings, is that the two ideas somehow don't link together.

Perhaps this is just the way you are attempting to explain it.  Words become a bummer at times...it eventually lacks expression.

But like I said.  Mormon teaching and Christian teaching depart ways at this point.  Christians believe that Jesus Christ was never unorginized matter but is and will be God....

Is this making sense?  LOL.

Hi, VAl.

To clear up the possible "mystery" in the Mormon doctrine, you have to understand that we believe that all people that ever lived, including Jesus, and all spirits that did not live in the flesh, including Satan, are all brothers and sisters. We were all made, or organized by God the Father. God the Father is NOT Jesus Christ.

Thank you for your explanation.  Your explanation is what I do understand, and the reason why I am showing you the difference between "Christian" thought and "Mormon" thought.

The difference between Mormons and most Christians is that Christians DO NOT believe what you posted above.  Most Christians do not believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers.  The scriptures are too clear on this point.  Even Jesus said that this "satan" and He had nothing in common.  Brothers have things in common.  

Secondly, the scriptures do not state that Jesus was ever "organized" by God the Father.  If anything, the scriptures state that Jesus was NEVER "organized".

Now...  this is the harder part.

Some "Christians" believe with you that God the Father is NOT Jesus the Son.  Yet they would disagree with you that Jesus is some organized pre-existing matter.

Yet some "Christians" would disagree with you and claim that Jesus IS God the FAther.

Whats the point?  Even though many or most or some "Christians" disagree amonsgst each other about the beginning of Jesus, they all, or most would disagree with your statements above.

Second point, Jesus was the FIRST spirit created, or organized by God the Father. He is the firstborn in spirit AND the flesh.

The only other religion that I know that teaches this (because I've studied them) is the Jehovah's Witnesses....but, that was long ago.  Lately, I haven't studied other religions.

I believe this is titled...ARIANISM?  MONARCHIASM is different and sometimes associated to be the same...not so....I think, based on things off the top of my head.  LOL.

I want to specifically challenge your claim, or undestanding here.  There is NOT one NT scripture that will support you here....Or, can you support your assertion?

Third point, Jesus created the Earth and everything else at God the Father's command. Jesus does nothing except that what God commands him to do. That is part of their Oneness.

Oneness?  Yes.  That sort of reminds me of the "Christian" view, without the other things you say about "organized by God" (Like Jesus was, and the rest of us).

What you are saying is that Jesus is ONLY different from us because he was "organized" or made before the rest of us.  No.  The "Christians" believe that Jesus was never ogranized or created...but has ALWAYS BEEN.  Not created, Not coming to be, but has always been.  God of very God.

But Christians will agree with Mormons that it was Jesus that created all things...even JW's would agree with you, and many others that Jesus created all things???

Fourth point, all spirits have no begining and no end. All of us and Jesus, which relates to us being children of God.

The sciptures state that there is a limatation to those who possess "beginning and no end".  If you are to include "All of us", then you are departing from what the NT scriptures describes as the only one who made all things....created all things...and that i which all things have their origin.  This part is difficult to explain.  LOL.  But including JESUS into that framework does damage to his reputation.  And by the way, does the NT scriptures ever tell us to exalt this "satan", Jesus "brother" the same way as those exalted into the possession or condition of being the children of God?  Your bible might (BOM) but the NT writings certianly does not show that light?

Does that help? It is a bit different from common Christian doctrine. I recognize that

.

It certianly does help.  Thanks.  And, oh yeah baby, it is drammaticaly different from "common Christian doctrine".  At least you now do recognize that.

This is my problem.  How do you, as a Mormon religion, exalt Jesus?

G.

Hey geegee,
Thanks for the discussion on differences. I always knew the differences existed I just didn't know exactly how. Now I am more educated in the matter!

Thanks for continuing to discuss things with me Val.  And you are educating me too.  It goes two ways here, ya know!

Yes, there certianly is differences.  And those differences probably will always be that way?  But maybe my vision is too short, perhaps 500 years from now, a line will connect each concerning Mormon and Christian thought?  We both will have to give up certian ideas to reach such a possibility, but I think it should be the more important things that should be recognized concerning the original message to the masses that we should concentrate on, and agree on?  I don't necessarily disagree with differences, but what I think is important is the central message of the gospel.  The central and theme message of the gospel is what we all, whether Mormon, JW, etc should agree on.  But this central message is about a PERSON...aka..Jesus the Christ..The Messiah...also know as GOD.

Here are some scriptures on Jesus being the firstborn:
Col. 1: 13-18
Heb. 1: 1-6

Good.  I do know that scriptures.  They are very familiar to me.  Lets not forget that one in Revelation....but already know that you know that one!!  You are just giving a start, and by no means being exhaustive.  So...I gather that you understand "firstborn" as meaning first to be born?  First to be born, fashioned or created before all others?  First in line?  What if this statement found in those scriptures has a differing meaning?

(I will let go of the "brother" issue between Jesus and Lucifer (satan) for now..but I already referred to this previously in the beginning of our discussion in this thread...perhaps some time we will get back into it? but for now....)

How do we exalt Jesus Christ? Unlike the rest of us, Jesus was perfect! He was without sin and bended to the Father's will in all things. No other human or spirit can claim such a thing! This exalts him above all others! He was physically capable of taking upon him the sins of all. He was capable of raising himself from the dead. No other person can claim such power!

There is such a wording there that I have to disagree with..but not now.  All I could say to this is a big hearty AMEN!!

Mormons do NOT differ in their beliefs as to what Christ did and what he means to the world. Perhaps there is difference in opinion as to origin but a LACK of scripture on the Christian side does not provide proof to their claims. To say it was not written does NOT correlate to NOT true. In fact most Christians can hardly agree on the truth that IS written. Wouldn't you agree?

Yes, I agree.  As a matter of fact, Val, I don't think many Christians will disagree with your first sentence either.  As far as I can tell, all christians won't differ much at all concerning what Jesus did.  But when you say "origin" are you speaking of the BoM here?  Sorry, this part is not clear enough for me to undestand what you are supporting.

G.

Yes, VAl  those are interesting thougts that you brought to the attention of this forum.  To be honest, even though I have not studied Mormon thought, prior to the creation of the Mormon threads, I've already thought of those things before.  Oh yes, I've already thought of those things you brought forth before you even posted them.

I will come back to give my own thoughts..which I will try to build on the gospel message.  This should end up being a more interesting coversation then?  lol.

G.

Val.

It did take me some time to come up with this new handle..haha

Hmmm... yes yes... I did have ample time didn't I??

I better pull up my stockings.. get with the program here.

We will speak soon.