Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: The Mighty Cop: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift  (Read 1269 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Copernicus

  • Paramount User!!
  • *
  • Feedback: +30/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2226
    • Naastika Blog
The Mighty Cop: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift
« on: June 29, 2008, 02:45:08 PM »

Bacteria make major evolutionary shift

Since evolution takes place across generations, it is usually difficult to observe it actually happening.  This New Scientist article is an excellent example of speciation, although it occurs at the microscopic level.  Because bacteria reproduce and die at a much faster rate than humans, scientists can observe major shifts in their genome when they occur.  In this case, E Coli is distinguished from other bacteria in terms of its inability to use citrate.  Biologist Richard Lenski has now shown that bacteria can evolve into a new species under observation in the laboratory.  As the article states, "Lenski's experiment is also yet another poke in the eye for anti-evolutionists."

http://naastika.blogspot.com/2008/06/bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift.html
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 02:51:53 PM by Copernicus »
Logged
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  --Anonymous

End Bringer

  • Predominant User
  • *
  • Feedback: +9/-11
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 815
Re: The Mighty Cop: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2008, 05:38:57 PM »

Logged

Copernicus

  • Paramount User!!
  • *
  • Feedback: +30/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2226
    • Naastika Blog
Re: The Mighty Cop: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2008, 10:08:35 PM »

EB, can you please identify the source of your information?  You have a tendency not to do that, and it would be very helpful if you would.  I did not represent Lenski's results without referring to a source.
Logged
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  --Anonymous

End Bringer

  • Predominant User
  • *
  • Feedback: +9/-11
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 815
Re: The Mighty Cop: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2008, 10:34:21 PM »

EB, can you please identify the source of your information?  You have a tendency not to do that, and it would be very helpful if you would.  I did not represent Lenski's results without referring to a source.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Evolution-Unravels-Itself-in-Front-of-Researcher-039-s-Eyes-87773.shtml

Quote's right there at the bottom.
Logged

Copernicus

  • Paramount User!!
  • *
  • Feedback: +30/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2226
    • Naastika Blog
Re: The Mighty Cop: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2008, 10:52:15 PM »

Er, okay.  The article you cite just supports Lenski's case.  Nothing in it says "E.Coli already have the ability to transport citrate into the cell and utilize it. It just doesn't function or isn't produced depending on the level of oxygen."  The word "oxygen" does not even appear on that web page.  Where did you come up with that claim?
Logged
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  --Anonymous

End Bringer

  • Predominant User
  • *
  • Feedback: +9/-11
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 815
Re: The Mighty Cop: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2008, 11:43:27 PM »

Why? It's true isn't it? But if you really want an article: http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/full/180/16/4160

All this is is another evolutionist attempt at grasping while confusing "adaptation" within kind with actual "evolutionary innovation". While researching this topic I also found this article interesting: http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/first-paragraph-of-lenski-paper-contains-an-error/

Of course this doesn't even address the issue of the difference between randomized natural conditions, and what occurs in a lab setting threw the specific works of intelligent agents.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2008, 11:49:08 PM by End Bringer »
Logged

Copernicus

  • Paramount User!!
  • *
  • Feedback: +30/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2226
    • Naastika Blog
Re: The Mighty Cop: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2008, 12:44:15 AM »

Why? It's true isn't it? But if you really want an article: http://jb.asm.org/cgi/content/full/180/16/4160

That statement is true only for anoxic conditions.  E coli cannot metabolize it under oxic conditions, and the odds were astronomical that it could do that.  Hence, as the original Lenski article pointed out, "E. coli cells cannot grow on citrate under oxic conditions, and that inability has long been viewed as a defining characteristic of this important, diverse, and widespread species."  Note the expression defining characteristic.  Lenski conducted 12 longitudinal studies, but only one of his populations evolved the trait, and that population had an interesting history.  You ought to actually read the original article instead of anti-evolution screeds on the internet.

Quote
All this is is another evolutionist attempt at grasping while confusing "adaptation" within kind with actual "evolutionary innovation". While researching this topic I also found this article interesting: http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/first-paragraph-of-lenski-paper-contains-an-error/

Desperately seeking some way to refute Lenski's discovery, you used this as your original source, didn't you?  After all, you aren't a biologist, and you can't really do much more than cut and paste from web sources.  I don't have a problem with google searches to research a position, but I do have a problem with not citing sources of information.  Scott likely got his information from Behe, who I believe was the first to try to pooh-pooh Lenski's research.  In any case, Scott didn't start out with that observation on his blog.  He only came to it in subsequent discussion, probably after doing some of his own web searches.  His main point--that Lenski somehow misused the concept of "random" in his first paragraph--was laughably wrong, as is apparent from Lenski's in depth discussion of randomness and determinacy with respect to his experimental results.

Quote
Of course this doesn't even address the issue of the difference between randomized natural conditions, and what occurs in a lab setting threw the specific works of intelligent agents.

What nonsense.  The experiment was controlled under lab conditions.  No intelligent intervention caused the mutation.  Read the original article.
Logged
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  --Anonymous

End Bringer

  • Predominant User
  • *
  • Feedback: +9/-11
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 815
Re: The Mighty Cop: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2008, 11:38:27 AM »

That statement is true only for anoxic conditions.  E coli cannot metabolize it under oxic conditions, and the odds were astronomical that it could do that.  Hence, as the original Lenski article pointed out, "E. coli cells cannot grow on citrate under oxic conditions, and that inability has long been viewed as a defining characteristic of this important, diverse, and widespread species."  Note the expression defining characteristic.  Lenski conducted 12 longitudinal studies, but only one of his populations evolved the trait, and that population had an interesting history.  You ought to actually read the original article instead of anti-evolution screeds on the internet.

You mean pro-evolutionary screed instead. Hmmm, wonder what it will sound like. :roll:

And yes, I'm well aware that the conditions in that article are different to Lenski's.  That's why I said "depending on the level of oxygen". However, it still shows the e.coli already have the ability to utilize citrate. Thus a mutation that would allow it to utilize it under higher levels of oxygen is not so unexpected, and even Lenski has believes that "an existing transporter has been coopted [sic] for citrate transport under oxic [high oxygen levels] conditions.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 10:41:32 PM by End Bringer »
Logged

Copernicus

  • Paramount User!!
  • *
  • Feedback: +30/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2226
    • Naastika Blog
Re: The Mighty Cop: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2008, 01:41:00 PM »



Thank you for finally revealing your source for all of this.  It was clear to me that you didn't understand what you were talking about, but you got all of this from a creationist web site that had attempted to critique Lenski:  http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/a-poke-in-the-eye.  That is, you were channeling Georgia Purdom of AiG in your responses, and it took you a while to get around to admitting it.  There has already been an in-depth response to her article called Predictable Twaddle from Georgia Purdom at offresonance.com.  This was written by a Yale grad student in biology who goes by the blogger name "Gerlach".  Gerlach's criticism was that Purdom completely missed the relevance of Lenski's challenge for creationism, which he stated as:

Quote from: Gerlach
Creationists, most notably Michael Behe, are fond of claiming that random mutation and natural selection cannot produce new traits if they require multiple mutations, either simultaneously or in series.  Lenski
Logged
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  --Anonymous

End Bringer

  • Predominant User
  • *
  • Feedback: +9/-11
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 815
Re: The Mighty Cop: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2008, 03:08:26 PM »

In fact, it appears that almost all of what you wrote was lifted from Purdom's article.  In the future, it would be a good idea to cite the reference up front.  I consider it a good thing that you actually went out of your way to uncover that information.  I read her article and Gerlach's rebuttal.  I leave it to you to read his rebuttal.

Not really, as I've made clear from my other cited sources that all I've done is give a generalization of everything I've read as you clearly thought I was lifting it from Scott's site. Or I could have simply pointed out Behe's blog that gives the same general facts I've given in this thread: http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/A3DGRQ0IO7KYQ2/ref=cm_blog_blog I'm sure you would have been quick to say I "cut and pasted" Behe too.

That all this aligns with Purdom's article as well simply goes into the fact this is the outlook from the other side, and creationist's aren't too upset about it. That you need to make this argument about how I say something rather than what I have to say shows a clear attempt to blow smoke.

Quote
I don't pretend to understand all of the biology or chemistry in Lenski's article, and I think that you are also out of your league when you start talking about the catabalization of citrates, much of which was uncredited cut-and-paste or attempts to paraphrase from Purdom.  I don't think that you intended so much to deceive as I think that you were deliberately being coy in order to impress readers with your understanding of biology. 

You mean cutting it down to basics? Yeah, you'll find a lot of overlap with that as I showed with the scientific article that clearly didn't have much "creationist screed" in it. You want references for things like that I suggest simply see wikipedia next time, as nothing I've said so far can be described as difficult to understand. Heck, it was the fairly simplistic "depending on the level of oxygen" statement that got you started on this sad chase. Not exactly something one can't understand with a high school education.

Quote
Having been a teacher, I've seen that sort of plagiarization before in students, and it is pretty easy to spot.

Ok Cop. Time to take your medication, and repeat the words: A forum is not a term paper. Say it with me Cop: A forum is not a term paper. Sesame Street it one more time: A forum is not a term paper. Rest assured Cop. when the day comes that I am required to write one for you (I've written dozens or at least 5), I will give it the respect, proffesionalism, and the sacred bibliography that a paper is due. Till then: A forum is not a term paper. Ok? [biggrin

Quote
The idea that laboratories are intelligently created should not be confused with a laboratory experiment that demonstrates unguided evolution in a species of bacteria.

And as Scott's site clearly notes (see what I did there) there was clearly "aiming" going on. Though it would be evident for no other reason than the fact that this laboratory experiment has been going on for years in a lab (controlled environment) with a routine, while "unguided" would be more "unguided" than a schedule. After such a long time investing in this it would be understandable for Lenski and other evolutionists to let excitement overcome sense.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2008, 10:27:48 PM by End Bringer »
Logged

Copernicus

  • Paramount User!!
  • *
  • Feedback: +30/-18
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2226
    • Naastika Blog
Re: The Mighty Cop: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2008, 02:22:22 PM »

Not really, as I've made clear from my other cited sources that all I've done is give a generalization of everything I've read as you clearly thought I was lifting it from Scott's site. Or I could have simply pointed out Behe's blog that gives the same general facts I've given in this thread: http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/A3DGRQ0IO7KYQ2/ref=cm_blog_blog I'm sure you would have been quick to say I "cut and pasted" Behe too.

Sometimes you do try to paraphrase what you read, but you don't do a very good job.  Having the source material often helps me to understand the point you are trying to make.  For example, I now have a better grasp of where you are coming from with your frequent references to the loss and gain of genetic information.  I thought that you were trying to paraphrase Dembski, but it now seems more likely that you were likely refencing Werner Gitt's somewhat discredited ideas on information theory.  Gitt has some background in information theory, but he makes some basic mistakes, not the least of which is his confused notion that information always implies intelligent design.  In fact, information theory is more about signal processing than semantics.  In any case, as I've made clear in the past, the claims about increases and decreases in genetic information are simply irrelevant.  Evolution theory makes no claims one way or the other about information.

Quote
That all this aligns with Purdom's article as well simply goes into the fact this is the outlook from the other side, and creationist's aren't too upset about it. That you need to make this argument about how I say something rather than what I have to say shows a clear attempt to blow smoke.

I'll just reiterate that I often have trouble understanding the point you are trying to get across because it is garbled either by failure to proofread what you wrote or an imperfect grasp of the material you are trying to paraphrase.  The discussion in this thread was a case in point.  Your comments became much clearer once I had access to the source material.

Quote
I don't pretend to understand all of the biology or chemistry in Lenski's article, and I think that you are also out of your league when you start talking about the catabalization of citrates, much of which was uncredited cut-and-paste or attempts to paraphrase from Purdom.  I don't think that you intended so much to deceive as I think that you were deliberately being coy in order to impress readers with your understanding of biology.

You mean cutting it down to basics? Yeah, you'll find a lot of overlap with that as I showed with the scientific article that clearly didn't have much "creationist screed" in it. You want references for things like that I suggest simply see wikipedia next time, as nothing I've said so far can be described as difficult to understand. Heck, it was the fairly simplistic "depending on the level of oxygen" statement that got you started on this sad chase. Not exactly something one can't understand with a high school education.

That was simplistic, and I addressed it quite well, I think.  Lenski's experiment showed a genuine chain of mutation that led to a major evolutionary shift.  Evolution is not magic, you know.  It does depend on the availability of genetic material that can lead to an adaptation.

Quote
Having been a teacher, I've seen that sort of plagiarization before in students, and it is pretty easy to spot.

Ok Cop. Time to take your medication, and repeat the words: A forum is not a term paper. Say it with me Cop: A forum is not a term paper. Sesame Street it one more time: A forum is not a term paper. Rest assured Cop. when the day comes that I am required to write one for you (I've written dozens or at least 5), I will give it the respect, proffesionalism, and the sacred bibliography that a paper is due. Till then: A forum is not a term paper. Ok? [biggrin

You can attempt to treat your behavior as inconsequential, but it really weakens your argument when you are caught trying to use the work of others to puff up your own image.  You have already been caught cutting and pasting material under your name without citing its source.  It is less serious (i.e. actually legal) to paraphrase the material of others, but it is still intellectually dishonest to pass off the arguments of others as purely you own thoughts on a subject.  The whole point of writing papers in school is not just to teach critical thinking, but to teach you how to make a well-structured argument.  You aren't required to do a term paper here, but you are expected to make honest, coherent arguments.

Quote
The idea that laboratories are intelligently created should not be confused with a laboratory experiment that demonstrates unguided evolution in a species of bacteria.

And as Scott's site clearly notes (see what I did there) there was clearly "aiming" going on. Though it would be evident for no other reason than the fact that this laboratory experiment has been going on for years in a lab (controlled environment) with a routine, while "unguided" would be more "unguided" than a schedule. After such a long time investing in this it would be understandable for Lenski and other evolutionists to let excitement overcome sense.

Again, you aren't making a coherent argument here.  An experiment is always "guided" in the sense that conditions are controlled in order to eliminate extraneous factors.  Are you claiming that Lenski somehow caused the evolutionary mutation by some kind of dishonest manipulation?  How do you think that the laboratory conditions biased the data or the conclusions?
Logged
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  --Anonymous

End Bringer

  • Predominant User
  • *
  • Feedback: +9/-11
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 815
Re: The Mighty Cop: Bacteria make major evolutionary shift
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2008, 03:33:14 PM »

Sometimes you do try to paraphrase what you read, but you don't do a very good job.  Having the source material often helps me to understand the point you are trying to make.  For example, I now have a better grasp of where you are coming from with your frequent references to the loss and gain of genetic information.  I thought that you were trying to paraphrase Dembski, but it now seems more likely that you were likely refencing Werner Gitt's somewhat discredited ideas on information theory.  Gitt has some background in information theory, but he makes some basic mistakes, not the least of which is his confused notion that information always implies intelligent design.  In fact, information theory is more about signal processing than semantics.  In any case, as I've made clear in the past, the claims about increases and decreases in genetic information are simply irrelevant.  Evolution theory makes no claims one way or the other about information.

Well this is an old arguement from you. One you repeatedly are shown to contradict yourself in with defenses of evolution fullfilling expectations yet making no claims from which expectations can only come from. If it makes no such claim you are saying the entire fossil record is irrelevant one way or another if it makes no such claim about the information need for limbs being gained or lost in order to survive. Blatantly contradicting to your past arguments and behavior.

Quote
I'll just reiterate that I often have trouble understanding the point you are trying to get across because it is garbled either by failure to proofread what you wrote or an imperfect grasp of the material you are trying to paraphrase.  The discussion in this thread was a case in point.  Your comments became much clearer once I had access to the source material.

No you don't. Like I said it was the very simplistic "e.coli already has the ability to utilize citrate depending on the level of oxygen" that got you started. I suspect that you simply have an innate paranoia that any rebuttal simply is copied from a creationist or ID site so you can simply dismiss it, and now are simply trying to hide behind a defense of being confused.

Quote
You can attempt to treat your behavior as inconsequential, but it really weakens your argument when you are caught trying to use the work of others to puff up your own image.

I have to wonder where I ever gave the impression that I care what faceless names and readers who I will never meet thinks of me. If you think something as useless as that is what motivates me, then you haven't been paying much attention all this time.

Quote
You have already been caught cutting and pasting material under your name without citing its source.  It is less serious (i.e. actually legal) to paraphrase the material of others, but it is still intellectually dishonest to pass off the arguments of others as purely you own thoughts on a subject.  The whole point of writing papers in school is not just to teach critical thinking, but to teach you how to make a well-structured argument.  You aren't required to do a term paper here, but you are expected to make honest, coherent arguments.

Unfortunately even if your reprimand held much weight with me, everything I've ever done has either been simply facts which are copied everywhere, or simply an argument down to it's basic point that addresses an issue brought up. Though from your latest Cutup-esque arguement I hardly need lectures from you on critical thinking.

Quote
Again, you aren't making a coherent argument here.  An experiment is always "guided" in the sense that conditions are controlled in order to eliminate extraneous factors.  Are you claiming that Lenski somehow caused the evolutionary mutation by some kind of dishonest manipulation?  How do you think that the laboratory conditions biased the data or the conclusions?

It's simply an observation that one can hardly call something "unguided" when the process seems to be dependant on a intended balance of the amount of food the bacteria may receive in an evironment where extraneous factors are intentionally removed and this being maintained for nearly 20 years. And I'm not claiming any form of manipulation. In fact it's my understanding of the research is not even complete yet, as Lenski hasn't even tracked down the mutation. Which simply goes to highlight how enthuism may be getting the better of evolutionists if the experiment isn't even complete or hasn't undergone scrutiny and repeat experimentation. Something happening once is hardly in line with the "consistently many times" aspect of science experiments in determining something as fact.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

More Details