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Copernicus

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The Mighty Cop: In Defense of Robots
« on: February 07, 2009, 12:00:08 PM »

In Defense of Robots

Theists sometimes argue free will theodicy--that God permits evil in order that we might choose to obey his will freely. There is a part of this argument that I have never fully understood, and it is that for God to intervene directly in our choices would make us all into "robots"--beings incapable of making free choices, let alone moral choices. I have a couple of serious problems with this argument:

  • Robots can be programmed to make free choices in principle.
  • Our choices already appear to be determined by physical events inside our brains. That is, we are essentially flesh-and-blood robots.

Mainly, though, I just don't understand why God's presence would somehow affect our ability to choose to disobey him any more than a child is robbed of free will by the presence of his or her parent. As we all know, kids can choose to disobey even when the parent is glaring at them and muttering angry noises.

As for robots and morality, I leave you with Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics:
  • A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
  • A robot must obey orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
  • A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

In fact, Asimov worked out ways in which robots could violate #1. They can behave just like Christians who go to war and kill, even though God commands that they not kill. There is always the "greater good" to motivate evil.

http://naastika.blogspot.com/2009/02/in-defense-of-robots.html
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 12:15:33 PM by Copernicus »
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End Bringer

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Re: The Mighty Cop: In Defense of Robots
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2009, 02:50:40 PM »

  • Robots can be programmed to make free choices in principle.

I think the very fact that you include the word "programmed" means it's not a free choice in principle.

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  • Our choices already appear to be determined by physical events inside our brains. That is, we are essentially flesh-and-blood robots.

Begging the philosophical question of if we are more that flesh-and-blood robots (rather silly when the issue must concede God created us one way or another for the sake of arguement).

I'd say your "problems" are more challanging for you, than theists.

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Mainly, though, I just don't understand why God's presence would somehow affect our ability to choose to disobey him any more than a child is robbed of free will by the presence of his or her parent. As we all know, kids can choose to disobey even when the parent is glaring at them and muttering angry noises.

Neither do I. Good thing no one's argueing God's presence does affect our abilitity to choose.

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As for robots and morality, I leave you with Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics:
  • A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
  • A robot must obey orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
  • A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

So as such, you're conceding robot's wouldn't have free will to disobey rule 1 no matter what. A rather apparent contradiction to your 'robot's can have free will' statement.

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In fact, Asimov worked out ways in which robots could violate #1. They can behave just like Christians who go to war and kill, even though God commands that they not kill. There is always the "greater good" to motivate evil.

The rather silly misconstrueing of what God commands aside (as someone experienced with argueing with Christians as you are it's just a sign that you haven't  learned a thing), Asimov's works are just pure conjecture, essentially make-believe. This is far from hard evidence, let alone persuasive (unless your preaching to the choir). If they were programmed with such rules the only realistic way for them to be disobeyed is by malfunctions rather than free will. And unless you've got something more substantial than I Robot to prove otherwise, you're just compounding question begging with question begging.
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: The Mighty Cop: In Defense of Robots
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2009, 08:43:38 AM »

"Our choices already appear to be determined by physical events inside our brains. That is, we are essentially flesh-and-blood robots."

By 'appear' you mean by the lights of secular humanistic methodological naturalistic reductionist 'scientific' program.  Isn't it self-evident that if this is your method of investigation that this will be the 'apparent' conclusion?

What about your own experience of reality?  Does that count for nothing?  If you 'appear' to actually experience 'free will' doesn't that give the lie to what materialistic scientists tell you? 

The idea that our choices are determined is an epistemological poison pill.   On the basis you suggest, I am as 'determined' to reject your atheistic conclusions as you are 'determined' to accept them.  Truth is no longer relevant.

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Mainly, though, I just don't understand why God's presence would somehow affect our ability to choose to disobey him any more than a child is robbed of free will by the presence of his or her parent. As we all know, kids can choose to disobey even when the parent is glaring at them and muttering angry noises.

Out of curiosity, do you have kids?

You're wrong here.  Or, you're missing the point.  Yes, kids can choose to disobey even in the presence of their parents, but that only makes their insolence all the more pronounced.  Moreover, if they do obey while you are standing their breathing down their necks there is no virtue to their obedience.

Consider this real life example from this morning.  Every morning I have to tell my son to look both ways and watch for cars.  Every morning he obeys- great, he's not insolent, so that's a plus- but it is not a pure free choice because he knows I'm standing over his shoulder.   (in fact, in this situation the goal is to create something that is not a choice at all, but rather a habit.  When he is 15 and sees his first brutal car accident the choice to look both ways will be truly free as he sees the value in the effort).

The presence of the authority figure doesn't necessarily eliminate all free volition.  It does, however, influence the value and quality of that choice.  I want my son to clean his room on his own without me telling him to.  If I have to stand over him with threats, he may clean his room, but it was coerced.  If he doesn't clean his room still, we've got a different problem.

This is all illustrated very well with the case of Pharaoh.  Before God made himself crystal clear, Pharaoh was less culpable.   But even as God slowly revealed himself, it says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.  Finally, after the death of Pharaoh's own first born, he relented and let the Israelites go.  But was there any value to this 'free' choice?  Nope.  As illustrated by the fact that less then a day after he changed his mind and gave chase to the Israelites.

If God had never revealed himself at all, Pharoah would have always had a measure of excuse.  The more God revealed himself, the more Pharaoh had to make a choice.  Finally, he hardened his own heart, despite clear evidence of God's operation, to such an extent that if God hardened his heart there was no fundamental difference.

Every revelation of God creates the same sort of situation.  The same principle is visible in the New Testament, too, with how the Jews reacted to Jesus.

Atheists wonder why God doesn't reveal himself to them to 'clear things up once and for all' but like you said, just because the Father is present doesn't mean the Children obey.  It might be for your own good that God does not reveal himself that clearly.  If he did appear, maybe you'd write him off as a murderer or something and thumb your nose at him.  That kind of insolence will bring you no closer to salvation, I assure you.  ;)
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Zagzagel

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Re: The Mighty Cop: In Defense of Robots
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2009, 06:52:49 PM »

Robots can be programmed to make free choices in principle.
Our choices already appear to be determined by physical events inside our brains. That is, we are essentially flesh-and-blood robots.

Mainly, though, I just don't understand why God's presence would somehow affect our ability to choose to disobey him any more than a child is robbed of free will by the presence of his or her parent. As we all know, kids can choose to disobey even when the parent is glaring at them and muttering angry noises.


Robots and free choices.. there will be malfunction.   

Your second point I don't think you yourself can understand fully..even me or us all. .. even phsycologists don't understand the whole human.. after all they are the professionals in this field.  Ever learning we all are.

What is interesting, though, by your "Mainly, though," is that this is what makes learning so interesting.  Even IF a parent were not muttering angry noises does not mean that the child learns faster.  Actually, it's historical that a positive environment doesn't always produce a non-malfunctioning human/rob

However, what IS interesting is the growth of that person/robot... compared in a certian world/worldview..... how does a robot or human then get programmed for .. shall we say.. better performance?  Hmmm... ;)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 07:00:17 PM by Zagzagel »
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