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Author Topic: The Mighty Cop: Playing Two-God Monte with Christian Apologists  (Read 632 times)

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Copernicus

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Playing Two-God Monte with Christian Apologists

There can be no doubt that the Christian God has anthropomorphic qualities.  The Old Testament Jehovah was more of a human caricature in that he seemed less than omnipotent, prone to anger and revenge, an advocate of tribalism, and too much like some kind of ancient patriarchal potentate.  The New Testament version had a much softer image, but he still behaves largely like a person.  He has emotions, thoughts, and goals.  He loves humans and orders them to behave in ways that benefit human relations.  He takes an interest in sexual behavior, just as any human would, and he is moved by praise from humans and pity for their plight.

Christians have a problem with charges of anthropomorphism, because it makes their god look more like the cartoonish creation that some would argue characterized the pagan gods of ancient mythologies.  Those gods were too obviously made up out of whole cloth by primitive people who needed to explain natural forces in terms of human-like agencies.  We no longer tend to think of natural forces as the result of imaginary beings that we can influence with gifts of wealth and devotion.  So God has been cleansed of many of the old anthropomorphic traits.  A modern Christian might use a male pronoun for God, but most seem to reject the idea that he is anything like a male in the conventional sense.  In more recent times, a picture of God has emerged in liberal theology that is more of an essence--a Ground of Being--than a person.  So allegations of anthropomorphism by skeptics are quite often countered by descriptions of God's essential ineffability--his immanence in and transcendence of our physical reality.  A kind of First Cause that is beyond our comprehension or understanding.

The stripping from God of all anthropomorphic traits leaves us with a God that cannot really be argued against.  It is hard to argue with the abstraction of an essence that is alleged to permeate everything and whose behavior and motives are beyond our understanding.  Do you believe in the existence of things that are beyond your awareness?   I don't know.  There are certainly things that I will never be aware of, but what could a "thing" be that is beyond comprehension?  This is the Shield--the belief that cannot be denied.

But do any of the believers stop praying because God's motives are unfathomable?  Do they abandon religious morality because God maybe didn't literally appear as a burning bush and hand some stone tablets to Moses?  Not usually.  They still attend church and sing along with the choir.  They still pray for forgiveness and praise the Lord as if God were subject to human feelings.  You can't love an abstraction, and religion isn't much use if it has nothing to offer.  So God switches right back to the anthropomorphic entity that serves the needs of those who worship him.  You don't worship a First Cause.  You worship a being that can be influenced by worship.

This oscillation between anthropomorphic and non-anthropomorphic deities is something that I have experienced many times in my lifetime of debating with Christians and others of faith over the nature of religious belief.  It is a pretty good defense mechanism for a largely untenable belief.  The God-as-essence version is the shield that defends the more vulnerable God-as-person version.  The former wraps around the latter when it comes under attack, but the latter emerges to serve the believer's real needs when the former has warded off the attackers.

http://naastika.blogspot.com/2008/08/playing-two-god-monte-with-christian.html
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 03:28:34 PM by Copernicus »
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: The Mighty Cop: Playing Two-God Monte with Christian Apologists
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2008, 02:22:25 PM »

lol, weak.

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A modern Christian might use a male pronoun for God, but most seem to reject the idea that he is anything like a male in the conventional sense.

I think this says all we need to know.  A modern Christian?  but most

Your post is only a challenge to the 'liberal theologians.'  The 'anthropomorphic' issue is a non-issue for Christians, ancient and otherwise, and all of them understand that he is not anything like a male in the conventional sense.  The only remaining question is why you skeptics don't know that, even after being corrected over and over again.
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Re: The Mighty Cop: Playing Two-God Monte with Christian Apologists
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2008, 03:03:47 PM »

Do you believe in the existence of things that are beyond your awareness?   I don't know.  There are certainly things that I will never be aware of, but what could a "thing" be that is beyond comprehension?

So your problem is your ego?

Quote
You don't worship a First Cause. You worship a being that can be influenced by worship.This oscillation between anthropomorphic and non-anthropomorphic deities is something that I have experienced many times in my lifetime of debating with Christians and others of faith over the nature of religious belief.  It is a pretty good defense mechanism for a largely untenable belief.

Your arguement would look less like a temper tantrum if you didn't seem to be changing your statement's intended audience in one huge condensed paragraph. Try structuring it better next time.

And you are right that we don't worship a First Cause. We worship a First Causer, because God is indeed a person. In fact as far as Christianity is concerned He's Three-in-One. Does that little detail sound like a person (of any gender) in a conventional sense?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 03:06:55 PM by End Bringer »
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Copernicus

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Re: The Mighty Cop: Playing Two-God Monte with Christian Apologists
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2008, 03:36:35 PM »

Quote
A modern Christian might use a male pronoun for God, but most seem to reject the idea that he is anything like a male in the conventional sense.

I think this says all we need to know.  A modern Christian?  but most

Most who debate the nature of God will dismiss any suggestion that God is male, yet the male imagery permeates scripture and religious language.  That has been my impression for many years now.  It allows for the have-cake-and-eat-it oscillation between person-like and essence-like God.

Quote
Your post is only a challenge to the 'liberal theologians.'  The 'anthropomorphic' issue is a non-issue for Christians, ancient and otherwise, and all of them understand that he is not anything like a male in the conventional sense.  The only remaining question is why you skeptics don't know that, even after being corrected over and over again.

Read the post.  What I said was that Christians are inconsistent in their concept of God.  They switch between anthropomorphic and non-anthropomorphic versions.  The non-anthropomorphic version is only a defensive shield against attacks on belief, both from others and from internal skepticism.  The anthropomorphic version is necessary to justify all the behavior that gives believers real benefit--social cooperation through obedience to authority, a sense of power over one's circumstances, a coping strategy for life's trials and tribulations.  God has to be human-like for believers to develop a relationship with him.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 03:40:23 PM by Copernicus »
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Copernicus

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Re: The Mighty Cop: Playing Two-God Monte with Christian Apologists
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2008, 03:39:25 PM »

Your arguement would look less like a temper tantrum if you didn't seem to be changing your statement's intended audience in one huge condensed paragraph. Try structuring it better next time.

This was an automatic posting from my blog.  During the transfer of the text, formatting is lost, because it is encoded in HTML tags that are stripped out.  I could not restore the paragraph structure here until the post got transferred, so this has been my first opportunity to do that.  It is now formatted properly.
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Re: The Mighty Cop: Playing Two-God Monte with Christian Apologists
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2008, 03:44:25 PM »

God has to be human-like for believers to develop a relationship with him.

Or humans have to be made in God's image to have a relationship with Him. As only stands to reason. It's always the opposite extreme and the fact that it's a fallacy that God must be totally alien from us that screws up this position of yours.

Quote
This was an automatic posting from my blog.  During the transfer of the text, formatting is lost, because it is encoded in HTML tags that are stripped out.  I could not restore the paragraph structure here until the post got transferred, so this has been my first opportunity to do that.  It is now formatted properly.

Thank you. Now it's gone up to the status of driveling rant.
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: The Mighty Cop: Playing Two-God Monte with Christian Apologists
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2008, 08:17:34 PM »

I didn't think it looked like a temper tantrum.

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Most who debate the nature of God will dismiss any suggestion that God is male, yet the male imagery permeates scripture and religious language.  That has been my impression for many years now.  It allows for the have-cake-and-eat-it oscillation between person-like and essence-like God.

Nonsense.  Pure bunk.  Not Most.  All.  'Impression'?  Not 'impression.'  Certainly does permeate.   

There is no 'oscillation' between 'person-like' and essence-like.  The critical point is that your notions of 'personhood' are anthropomorphic.  It is you who cannot imagine a way in which a thing can be a 'person' unless it has genitalia. 

As I have said before, not only is this not a difficult concept, but we do it all the time.  We call boats 'she' but we do not believe they have vaginas, for example.

"They switch between anthropomorphic and non-anthropomorphic versions."

Nonsense.  They switch, if 'switch' is the right word, in their language choice, not in their 'version.'  I do not believe in two Gods, one with a penis and one without one.   There are not two 'versions' at work at all, just as I don't have two versions of boats because I anthropomorphize them.

"God has to be human-like for believers to develop a relationship with him."

On this of course there isn't much objection, except you've got it backwards.  It is certainly the case that God has to be personal in order to have a relationship with him.  But the point works exactly the opposite- humans have to be personal in order for God to have a relationship with them.

"God has to be human-like for believers to develop a relationship with him." [Emphasis mine]

I'd say that if you cannot think of the matter without importing anthropomorphisms then you shouldn't hold it against the rest of us if we use them.  ;)
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Re: The Mighty Cop: Playing Two-God Monte with Christian Apologists
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2008, 08:31:06 PM »

I should add this caveat to my 'all' by reiterating that your post only has punch when raised against the Liberals.  It is only the liberal theologians who are embarrassed by the gender stuff and the 'anthropomorphisms.'

The rest of us don't need to be embarrassed because frankly it doesn't require much brain power to resolve.
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Re: The Mighty Cop: Playing Two-God Monte with Christian Apologists
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2008, 08:43:14 PM »

This essay in CS Lewis's collection of essay "God in the Dock" is titled "Must our Image of God Go?"

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The Bishop of Woolwich will disturb most of us Christian laymen less than he anticipates.  We have long abandoned belief in a God who sits on a throne in a localized heaven.  We call that belief anthropomorphism, and it was officially condemned before our time.  There is something about this in Gibbon.  I have never met any adult who replaced 'God up there' by 'God out there' in the sense 'spatially external to the universe.'  If I said God is 'outside' or 'beyond' space-time, I should mean 'as Shakespeare is outside The Tempest'; ie, its scenes and persons do not exhaust his being.  We have always thought of God as being not only 'in' 'above', but also 'below' us:  as the depth of ground.  We can imaginatively speak of Father 'in heaven' yet also of the everlasting arms that are 'beneath'.  We do not understand why the Bishop is so anxious to canonize the one image and forbid the other.  We admit his freedom to use which he prefers.  We claim our freedom to use both.

His view of Jesus as a 'window' seems wholly orthodox ('he that hath seen me hath seen the Father').  Perhaps the real novelty is in the Bishop's doctrine about God.  But we can't be certain, for here he is very obscure.  He draws a sharp distinction between asking 'Does God exist as a person?' and asking whether ultimate reality is personal.  But surely he who says yes to the second question has said yes to the first?  Any entity describable without gross abuse of language as God must be ultimate reality, and if ultimate reality is personal, then God is personal.  Does the Bishop mean that something which is not 'a person' could yet be 'personal'?  Even this could be managed if 'not a person' were taken to mean 'a person and more' - as is provided for by the doctrine of the Trinity.  But the Bishop does not mention this.

Thus, though sometimes puzzled, I am not shocked by his article.  His heart, though perhaps in some danger of bigotry, is in the right place.  If he has failed to communicate why the things he is saying move him so deeply as they obviously do, this may be primarily a literary failure.  If I were briefed to defend his position I should say 'The image of the Earth-Mother gets in something which that of the Sky-Father leaves out.  Religions of the Earth-Mother have hitherto been spiritually inferior to those of the Sky-Father, but perhaps it is now time to readmit some of their elements.'  I shouldn't believe it very strongly, but some sort of case could be made out.

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Re: The Mighty Cop: Playing Two-God Monte with Christian Apologists
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2008, 09:37:39 PM »

I didn't think it looked like a temper tantrum.

That's what I call any complaint that doesn't make use of the Enter key. It makes it look like a child typed it.

Trust me I'd rather have Cop's reasoning as grounds to call him childish than text format. Otherwise he can correct it and I'd have to take him seriously. ;)
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