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Copernicus

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Abstinence Only
« on: June 22, 2006, 03:37:50 PM »

Do you think that the Bush administration's policy of promoting "Abstinence Only" programs at taxpayer expense is something you can support?  Are the programs working?  Do you think that these programs are ethically or morally sound?  Should men and women abstain from sex before marriage?  On what grounds?

If you like, please comment on the following Washington Post news story:  
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A26623-2004Dec1 .  Do you agree with the perspective of the article or disagree?
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Bdean

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Abstinence Only
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2006, 12:14:59 AM »

Regarding the article, providing students with inaccurate information is clearly inappropriate, and these inaccuracies are present in a variety of sex education programs.  I have received similar anecdotal information from a number of individuals who were in non-abstinence sex education classes that taught equally inaccurate information.  A few that come to mind include: people who don't have sex prior to marriage are less happy with sex in marriage, abstaining is psychologically damaging, and condoms prevent STDs (suggesting that they prevent all of them beyond any reasonable concern).  Inaccurate information on all sides of the issue is unacceptable.  

However, education goes beyond providing information.  All education is about influencing the thoughts, actions, beliefs, etc. of others.  I know some educators (k-20) who reject this notion, but I haven't met one who is able to demonstrate teaching in a way that doesn't influence thoughts, actions, beliefs, dispositions, attidues, etc.  And this is the challenge with such a topic like sex education.  If a public school education is no longer able to provide an education that respects and takes into account the diverse moral beliefs of families then public schools no longer provide a solid democratic education.  If public schools teach that the only responbile foundation for moral and ethical positions is scientific and philosophical inquriy, then it is intentionally or unintentionally attempting to subvert the religious convictions and values of many families.  

To simply frame sex education as a "health issue" only...even primarily is to attack the moral (and sometimes religious) values of more than a few families.  What you don't mention sometimes teaches as much or more than what you do mention.
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Deep Thought

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Abstinence Only
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2006, 07:14:38 AM »

"Abstinence Only?" Bah, humbug. I can't say I like the idea. But maybe that has its roots in my looking down on marriage as unimportant in and of itself.

Inaccurate info is definitely a no-no, no questions there. A no-no on both sides of the fence.

What I'm primarily concerned about on this point is that sex ed teaches people to act responsibly. One might argue that abstinence is somehow "more responsible" than birth control, but I would disagree witht that notion. More moral, maybe--but that kind of teaching (I here disagree in part with Bdean) in a secular school, and I would disagree with that, too.

What I think the ideal sex ed class would look like is this: a non-abstinence-only institution that did not preach inaccurate info, that kept itself seperate from but perhaps gave occasional nods of acknowledgement to the moral side of the question, and which educated its students to be prudent in preventing pregnancy, as well as in treating sex as something important (because, even when you strip it of any moral, religious, or even romantic dressing, it is still important), not to be taken lightly.
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Bdean

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Abstinence Only
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2006, 08:28:17 AM »

BTW - My post was intended to be a critique of both abstinence and non-absitance sex programs that attempt to frame the subject as simply a matter of health education.
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Copernicus

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Abstinence Only
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2006, 11:28:53 AM »

What about the argument that abstinence-only, by not educating children in contraceptive methods, increases the abortion rate?  This is based on the assumption that unwanted pregnancies are the primary cause of abortion and that lack of contraception leads to more unwanted pregnancies.  If that is true, then isn't abstinence-only a self-defeating program for those who wish to reduce the number of abortions?
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Bdean

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Abstinence Only
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2006, 12:24:14 PM »

Quote
What about the argument that abstinence-only, by not educating children in contraceptive methods, increases the abortion rate?


Is this question directed toward me?  I have yet to state whether or not I promote an abstinence-only curriculum in public schools.  Instead, I was commenting upon the content of the article, my concern about treating sex education as nothing more than a health issue, and about the seeming inability of public schools to teach students about sex without disregarding, undermining, or subverting the diverse values and morals of families on this issue.
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Copernicus

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Abstinence Only
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2006, 02:23:38 PM »

Hi, Bdean.  My remark was addressed to people who support abstinence-only programs, not as a response to your post.

Quote from: Bdean
Regarding the article, providing students with inaccurate information is clearly inappropriate, and these inaccuracies are present in a variety of sex education programs.  I have received similar anecdotal information from a number of individuals who were in non-abstinence sex education classes that taught equally inaccurate information.  A few that come to mind include: people who don't have sex prior to marriage are less happy with sex in marriage, abstaining is psychologically damaging, and condoms prevent STDs (suggesting that they prevent all of them beyond any reasonable concern).  Inaccurate information on all sides of the issue is unacceptable.


I can agree with you up to a point.  Inaccurate information should not be taught.  The problem that I see with abstinence-only programs in this regard is that they are intended to teach the moral principle that sex outside of marriage is wrong.  Normal sex education classes are not intended to teach any moral principle, e.g. that sex outstide of marriage is permissible.  So the material tends to be less prone to distortions caused by zealous promoters of religious or political ideology.  Hence, I disagree with your implication that the information taught in sex education classes is equally inaccurate, if that is what you intended to imply.  It certainly isn't necessary to make the "inaccurate" claims you cite in the above paragraph, but abstinence-only classes actually do try to make the case that sex outside of marriage is harmful.  There does seem to be statistical evidence that abstinence-only training actually fails to prevent extramarital sex, in any case.

BTW, you do agree with my view, I hope, that schools should disseminate the information that condoms tend to prevent STDs.  It should not be taught or implied that they always work.  In fact, they are no guarantee against pregnancy either.

Quote
However, education goes beyond providing information.  All education is about influencing the thoughts, actions, beliefs, etc. of others.  I know some educators (k-20) who reject this notion, but I haven't met one who is able to demonstrate teaching in a way that doesn't influence thoughts, actions, beliefs, dispositions, attidues, etc.  And this is the challenge with such a topic like sex education.


I agree with your overall point that education affects thinking and behavior, but I disagree with your apparent implication that sex education promotes promiscuity.  There is no evidence at all that abstinence-only classes actually reduce promiscuous behavior significantly, if at all.  We know that a majority of high school graduates will have had sex regardless of abstinence-only programs.  So it would seem that sex education, particularly education in birth control methods, would be a slam-dunk requirement for any high school student.

Quote
If a public school education is no longer able to provide an education that respects and takes into account the diverse moral beliefs of families then public schools no longer provide a solid democratic education.  If public schools teach that the only responbile foundation for moral and ethical positions is scientific and philosophical inquriy, then it is intentionally or unintentionally attempting to subvert the religious convictions and values of many families.


I agree that public schools should not teach that the only responsible foundation for moral and ethical positions is scientific or philosophical inquiry.  It is quite possible to teach about human sexual reproduction and methods for preventing pregnancies and diseases without teaching that principle.

Quote
To simply frame sex education as a "health issue" only...even primarily is to attack the moral (and sometimes religious) values of more than a few families.  What you don't mention sometimes teaches as much or more than what you do mention.


I'm not sure what you mean here.  If schools try to teach morality, then they are bound offend just about everyone.  Why does sex education need to go beyond health issues?  In my experience, it does not recommend that people engage in premarital or extramarital sex.  Back in the 60's, my sex education class actually recommended that people follow the advice of their parents and their community on that score.
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Abstinence Only
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2006, 05:23:25 PM »

The only government funded programs I am in favor of are the police and the military.
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Bdean

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Abstinence Only
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2006, 09:37:20 PM »

Quote
BTW, you do agree with my view, I hope, that schools should disseminate the information that condoms tend to prevent STDs.


This is the dilemma that I have with teaching the subject in public schools. It would be foolish for me to suggest that condoms don't aid in decreasing the spread of some STDs.  It is just that I don't trust public sex education programs to teach sex education without having biases toward certain moral or amoral dispositions, without intentional or unintended undermining of what is taught in the home.

Quote
I agree with your overall point that education affects thinking and behavior, but I disagree with your apparent implication that sex education promotes promiscuity.  There is no evidence at all that abstinence-only classes actually reduce promiscuous behavior significantly, if at all. We know that a majority of high school graduates will have had sex regardless of abstinence-only programs. So it would seem that sex education, particularly education in birth control methods, would be a slam-dunk requirement for any high school student.


I don't know if sex education increases promiscuity.  However, I am confident that having a sex education class that only deals with health and birth control issues related to sex will end up teaching or promoting certain moral positions over others. I think I mentioned before my confidence that what is not mentioned has the potential to shape and teach as much as what is mentioned.  I am not opposed to all moral teaching in public schools; lessons about not cheating, stealing, deceiving, etc. seem acceptable becuase those are far more broadly accepted mores.  But, the moral issues related to sexuality are not as universal in society today.

So many difficuluties come to mind.  For example, should it be acceptable for public schools to speak about homosexuality as a valid and accetable lifestyle, and perhaps even include a lesson or two about safe homosexual sexual activites in a sex education course?  While many in society consider this an important means of teaching tolerance, is it acceptable even if the majority of families in a district strongly insist that their students not be required to attend lessons?  To what extent should a sex education program discuss issues related to oral and anal sex (or "tossing salad" as some students call it), both seemingly increasing sexual activites among youth?  Should the program address certain increasingly common activities and phrases like rainbow parties?  

This, among many other issues, is why I happen to be a strong advocate of choice programs, enabling families to choose among schools (public, private, parochial, charter) and bring an agreed upon portion of funds with them to the school of choice.  It is the only solution that I can think of that seems to fairly address the difficulties of curricular (intentional and hidden) issues like sex education in a way that respect the roles of parents/guardians/families in raising their children.

Quote
It is quite possible to teach about human sexual reproduction and methods for preventing pregnancies and diseases without teaching that principle.


I have only reviewed seven or eight sex education programs over the past ten years, but I have yet to see one without rather strong and moral biases.

I know that something must be taught, but I don't trust most of the teachers or curricular materials in public schools with the sex education of my daughter.  Of course, she is only two so I have a little time  [smile

BTW - My wife is a public school (well, actually a public charter school) teacher.  I, on the other hand, have taught exclusively in parochial schools.  For some reason, the public schools didn't seem interested in my teaching Christian theology  :wink:
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Anthony Horvath

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Abstinence Only
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2006, 08:56:09 AM »

The school should not be a socializing tool.  You should learn reading, writing, and 'rithmytic.   The old saw that the need is great and the parents are not up to the task only serves to avoid what is admitedly the real problem, then:  the parents.

People will attempt to rise to whatever standard you set for them.  A given population will always contain people who fail to achieve that standard.  The higher the standard, though, the higher they fall.  Ie, if the standard is 10, you will have many that in aiming for it, fail, and only achieve 8 or 9.  But it you set it for 8, those same folks will not achieve 8, they will achieve 6 or 7.  Thus, the higher your standard, the more your 'failures' acheive.  

There is, of course, a top limit of how high you could set that standard.  In my experience as a teacher, even a ridiculously high standard would be aimed for by some of the students.  I call this effect the 'aim high' principle.  Student (human) acheivement is not guided strictly on 'age-appropriateness' but largely on how much effort the human is willing to put in.  A 'B' student has the competency to get A's.  He's just perfectly willing to get a B and unwilling to do the extra work.

How does this apply?  You 'educate' a kid on 'safe sex' you are telling them you have a low expectation about their self-control.  You communicate that they are basically animals who are powerless from controlling their circumstances.  "Let's do it like they do it on Discovery Channel."  I am not in the slightest surprised then that they 'rise' to this expectation.  You tell a kid that they should wait until they are in a committed relationship, and you are telling them that they do have self-control.  Yes, people will fail:  but they will fail at a higher place than when they fail at "you're just an animal.  Your sexual behavior is instinctive and cannot be stopped.  Try your best to slip a condom in!"

This need not have any moral component at all from this perspective.

Also, I think it should be added that the current population of teachers still largely consists of teachers who had their good times in the 60s and 70s.  The 'free love' attitude which permeated these decades was a fiasco.  From the generation that brought us no-fault divorce (and its 1 out of every 2 divorces or whatever it is) and a host of STDs and rampant drug use- follow us!  we survived! So can you!

Clearly, not every teacher from that generation fits into that characterization.  However, as a personal victim of no-fault divorce and 'free-love' and the drug use of the period, I can say that as a child of the Fallout, I don't particularly think we should trust the system on this point.  In fact, we should be very skeptical.

If the problem is the parents, its the parents we should 'fix.'
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Bdean

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Abstinence Only
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2006, 07:52:12 PM »

Quote
The school should not be a socializing tool.  You should learn reading, writing, and 'rithmytic.


While there are many ideals in your post that I agree with, I do accept the role of schools as fostering positive citizenship and in having a role of socializing.  In fact, I think it is virtually impossible for schools not to have a socializing effect on students, even if the curriculum dealt exclusively with the three Rs.    

Teaching history, American government, literature, science, the arts, and physical education are all bound to have socializing effects and I support their inclusion in a public/private/parochial school curriculum. Teaching through discussion, socratic teaching, and group projects will also have a socilizing effect, even in teaching one of the 3 Rs.  Teaching math in an orderlyand effective manner also involves expecting and holding students accoutable for things like honesty, not cheating, being disciplined with homework, and learning to explain and discuss math with others.

I am open to and interested in educational ideas other than the way in which things are being done in modern American public schooling.  But, as long as public schooling as we know is around, I think that many social and moral issues will indeed be integral to a public education.  Apart from some overnight change in society, I still think that it would be impossible to remove the socializing role from schools, and giving families as much choice as possible among schools is the best reasonable option in dealing with issues like sex education.
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Zagzagel

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« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2006, 08:48:25 PM »

no wonder I homeschool...even though I struggle with the costs.
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Bdean

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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2006, 08:03:32 AM »

Quote
no wonder I homeschool...even though I struggle with the costs.


That is definitely a great option for some families.  Thanks for bringing it up. I forgot to include it in my other lists of options above.
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« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2006, 09:58:17 AM »

"In fact, I think it is virtually impossible for schools not to have a socializing effect on students, even if the curriculum dealt exclusively with the three Rs."

I think that is correct.  However, there is a difference between recognizing that schools will have a socializing effect on students (what activities do we engage in that do not have socializing effects?) and deciding to co-opt that fact for this agenda or that.  In my opinion, the recognition that schools will socialize (homogenize?) their captive audience should be driving us (I don't know who 'us' is) to be extremely cautious.   Its because I agree that whatever we say about things communicates values that I am loathe to simply capitulate and use the schools as our preferred organ for communicating values.

In other words, is the goal of the public schools to educate or to socialize?  How one answers that question I think will answer a host of other questions as well.

CS Lewis's "The Abolition of Man" certainly applies here.
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Copernicus

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« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2006, 12:03:19 PM »

Quote from: Bdean
Quote
BTW, you do agree with my view, I hope, that schools should disseminate the information that condoms tend to prevent STDs.


This is the dilemma that I have with teaching the subject in public schools. It would be foolish for me to suggest that condoms don't aid in decreasing the spread of some STDs.  It is just that I don't trust public sex education programs to teach sex education without having biases toward certain moral or amoral dispositions, without intentional or unintended undermining of what is taught in the home.


I don't think that any of us have that trust, but I don't see that as an argument for opposing basic sex education.  There is simply no way for the public school system to endorse everybody's idea of morality.  How could it possibly make sense not to tell children about condoms and other methods of birth control?  The role of the school system is to prepare emerging adults to face the experiences they will meet in real life, not to keep them ignorant of options that affect life-altering behavior.  In reality, sex education classes tend to talk a lot about the serious consequences of teenage pregnancy and STDs.  

Quote
I don't know if sex education increases promiscuity.  However, I am confident that having a sex education class that only deals with health and birth control issues related to sex will end up teaching or promoting certain moral positions over others. I think I mentioned before my confidence that what is not mentioned has the potential to shape and teach as much as what is mentioned.  I am not opposed to all moral teaching in public schools; lessons about not cheating, stealing, deceiving, etc. seem acceptable becuase those are far more broadly accepted mores.  But, the moral issues related to sexuality are not as universal in society today.


I agree with your point that it is impossible to teach a curriculum that is devoid of moral and ethical values.  The dilemma here is that society does promote attitudes towards sex that large numbers of people disagree with.  You seem to fear that the school system will teach irresponsible values, but our children are immersed in a complex society with conflicting values that they must learn to sort out every day.  Making sex a taboo topic in the curriculum will not end those social pressures, and a school system that ignores this fact seems irresponsible to me.  Not only does it promote ignorance, but it promotes the wrong-headed notion that ignorance is preferable to knowledge.

Quote
So many difficuluties come to mind.  For example, should it be acceptable for public schools to speak about homosexuality as a valid and accetable lifestyle, and perhaps even include a lesson or two about safe homosexual sexual activites in a sex education course?  While many in society consider this an important means of teaching tolerance, is it acceptable even if the majority of families in a district strongly insist that their students not be required to attend lessons?  To what extent should a sex education program discuss issues related to oral and anal sex (or "tossing salad" as some students call it), both seemingly increasing sexual activites among youth?  Should the program address certain increasingly common activities and phrases like rainbow parties?


What would be the point of not addressing all those issues that you raise?  Do you think that some teenagers can escape being exposed to them if schools look the other way?  Given that many parents will simply not discuss such issues with their children, school seems a perfect place to disseminate reliable information about the risks.

Quote
This, among many other issues, is why I happen to be a strong advocate of choice programs, enabling families to choose among schools (public, private, parochial, charter) and bring an agreed upon portion of funds with them to the school of choice.  It is the only solution that I can think of that seems to fairly address the difficulties of curricular (intentional and hidden) issues like sex education in a way that respect the roles of parents/guardians/families in raising their children.


Well, I'm a very strong advocate of choice, but I don't believe that the government should subsidize every choice that parents want to make in their children's education.  Society simply cannot afford the luxury of such indulgence.  I understand that there are many parents who are fearful of having their children exposed to values, beliefs, and ideas that they disagree with.  On the other hand, the most valuable thing that education has to teach is critical thinking, and that cannot be done without exposure to values and ideas that people disagree with.  So I think that society's need to educate new generations needs to take precedence.  Those parents who feel a strong need to shelter their children from outside influences, or who simply feel that the public schools are not good enough, must struggle with the options of either home schooling or private schooling.  Those options, being decisions to opt out of public education, ought to be funded privately.  This in no way diminishes their obligation to fund tuition-free public education, which is a general benefit to all of society, not just individual families.

Quote
I have only reviewed seven or eight sex education programs over the past ten years, but I have yet to see one without rather strong and moral biases.

I know that something must be taught, but I don't trust most of the teachers or curricular materials in public schools with the sex education of my daughter.  Of course, she is only two so I have a little time  [smile


I understand, but I do think that we need to draw a line somewhere.  We cannot provide a system that pleases everyone, and we cannot promote values in our public school system that address everyone's private standard.  So what can we do about it?  Dismantle all public schools and let every family fend for themselves in getting their children educated?
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Bdean

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« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2006, 05:08:33 PM »

This is a good, worthwhile discussion. Thanks for starting it.

Quote
You seem to fear that the school system will teach irresponsible values, but our children are immersed in a complex society with conflicting values that they must learn to sort out every day. Making sex a taboo topic in the curriculum will not end those social pressures, and a school system that ignores this fact seems irresponsible to me. Not only does it promote ignorance, but it promotes the wrong-headed notion that ignorance is preferable to knowledge.


I don't advocate not addressing the topics as much as providing families with options of when and how the topics are addressed.  Kids are going to face the implications of a violent world, but I don't necessarily advocate having them watch and analyze too many violent acts in school.  There are some very graphic depictions of abortions, body parts, etc. that could be part of sex education programs if the goal is full disclosure and avoiding ignorance of the procedures.  But where do we draw the line?  I am just arguing that parents should have a role in deciding where to draw the line. I don't think schools, educators, curriculum developers, or school boards have greater wisdom or insight in the line drawing than do individual families.  That brings me back to the idea of providing, within fiscal reason, choice.  

Quote
What would be the point of not addressing all those issues that you raise? Do you think that some teenagers can escape being exposed to them if schools look the other way? Given that many parents will simply not discuss such issues with their children, school seems a perfect place to disseminate reliable information about the risks.


As a parochial school theology teacher, I discussed all of these topics and many more in classes.  I am quite confident that students had the opportunity to discuss such issues far more candidly in the context of my class than in most public school sex education programs. Then again, we were exploring the issues from religious, moral, and theological perspectives.  Health issues were explored in a different series of classes, but health-related issues certainly arose in my class also.  The difference is that parents clearly knew the biases and perspectives of my school.  While a certain teaching strategy may have been a surprise to parents on occasion, the position was very rarely a surprise.    Even if families disagreed with parts of the school "agenda", at least they knew where the school (and even individual teachers) stood.  Much more was on the table.  This is less frequently the case in public schools, but I advocate making it more open.  I think educators and schools have the responsibility to put their ideological cards on the table for all to see.

I recently took a creative writing doctoral workshop for fun.  Two of the classmates were public high school writing teachers.  One was heavily into drugs, every short story that he wrote involved his experiences with drugs, and he openly discussed his political views that most "recreational" drugs should be legal.  If he were teaching my student, I would definitely want to know his position on such matters.  I recently found this teacher on one of the rate your teacher web sites and this teacher was loved by the students; many of them hinting at or flat out stating out how cool it was to have a teacher was "more like us than like a teacher."

The other teacher was very politically astute and took strong positions against the current presidential administration.  This person shared many ways that she sought to help the "right wing" students see the error of their ways.  Again, I think parents should know such things about their kid's teachers.  I know that it puts teachers "at risk", but if they are going to advocate strong positions to our children, then families should at least have the right to know about it.  This is definitely true when it comes to sex education also.    

Quote
I understand, but I do think that we need to draw a line somewhere. We cannot provide a system that pleases everyone, and we cannot promote values in our public school system that address everyone's private standard. So what can we do about it? Dismantle all public schools and let every family fend for themselves in getting their children educated?


Sorry for being so repetitive, but I am proposing that we:

1) Demand that schools and educators provide candid disclosure,
2) Enhance methods of public scrutiny of school curricula,
3) Further involve family and community constituents in the debate, and
4) As much as it is fiscally and logistically reasonable, provide school choice for families.

I am not, however, advocating that schools avoid the subject.
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Copernicus

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Abstinence Only
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2006, 02:55:26 PM »

Quote from: Bdean
I don't advocate not addressing the topics as much as providing families with options of when and how the topics are addressed.  Kids are going to face the implications of a violent world, but I don't necessarily advocate having them watch and analyze too many violent acts in school.  There are some very graphic depictions of abortions, body parts, etc. that could be part of sex education programs if the goal is full disclosure and avoiding ignorance of the procedures.  But where do we draw the line?  I am just arguing that parents should have a role in deciding where to draw the line. I don't think schools, educators, curriculum developers, or school boards have greater wisdom or insight in the line drawing than do individual families.  That brings me back to the idea of providing, within fiscal reason, choice.


We probably disagree on "fiscal reason" here.  I see government funding for parochial and other private schools as undermining public education, so I am very reluctant to see a voucher system implemented.  Private schools play an essential role in our education system, but I don't see them as a solution for the failures in the public sector.  The PTA system gives parents considerable say in how their children are educated, but public school systems need to support minimal standards that go beyond local community control.  After all, our society is very mobile, and what seems sensible in a small community may not be the best solution for young adults who have to deal with life outside of that community.  While parents sometimes do know better than professional educators about the needs of their children, I do think it important that the experts not be dismissed out of hand by parents who are panicked over some social issue that happens to be sensationalized in the evening news.  

I think you'll find that most of those "experts" also raise families and understand the emotions that drive parents insane.  It isn't necessarily bad that children be exposed to ideas and influences outside of the family.  In truth, I'm not sure how it can be good to insulate children, unless the local school system has so broken down that it is impossible for the child to acquire a good education.  In that case, the community needs to mobilize to change the local school system.  sending one's own kids off to a private school and ignoring the neighbors' kids doesn't seem very wise to me.  Nor does it strike me as reasonable to expect most parents to engage in home schooling.  At some point, we simply have to guarantee a decent education in public schools, as we have in the past.

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As a parochial school theology teacher, I discussed all of these topics and many more in classes.  I am quite confident that students had the opportunity to discuss such issues far more candidly in the context of my class than in most public school sex education programs. Then again, we were exploring the issues from religious, moral, and theological perspectives.  Health issues were explored in a different series of classes, but health-related issues certainly arose in my class also.  The difference is that parents clearly knew the biases and perspectives of my school.  While a certain teaching strategy may have been a surprise to parents on occasion, the position was very rarely a surprise.    Even if families disagreed with parts of the school "agenda", at least they knew where the school (and even individual teachers) stood.  Much more was on the table.  This is less frequently the case in public schools, but I advocate making it more open.  I think educators and schools have the responsibility to put their ideological cards on the table for all to see.


You give a great example of how private schools can help society by delivering an education that some parents can feel more comfortable with.  But even you point out that there is a need for health issues to be addressed apart from theological concerns, and that is what I think sex education is all about.  If you want your child to be exposed to a certain kind of religious morality, it is possible to provide that exposure in a less immersive environment than parochial school. You don't need to provide public funding for private schools to achieve that.

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I recently took a creative writing doctoral workshop for fun.  Two of the classmates were public high school writing teachers.  One was heavily into drugs, every short story that he wrote involved his experiences with drugs, and he openly discussed his political views that most "recreational" drugs should be legal.  If he were teaching my student, I would definitely want to know his position on such matters.  I recently found this teacher on one of the rate your teacher web sites and this teacher was loved by the students; many of them hinting at or flat out stating out how cool it was to have a teacher was "more like us than like a teacher."


Yes, I'm quite sure that there are bad teachers in the public school system, and some of them will be able to bamboozle their students into thinking that they are good educators.  A good educator is not necessarily the most congenial or popular one.  This does not suggest to me that the teachers in private systems are necessarily better.  In fact, we have seen huge scandals over pedophilia in connection with the Catholic church.  One of the problems with private schools is that they often lack accountability.  Public schools often screw up, but they are subject to greater public scrutiny.

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The other teacher was very politically astute and took strong positions against the current presidential administration.  This person shared many ways that she sought to help the "right wing" students see the error of their ways.  Again, I think parents should know such things about their kid's teachers.  I know that it puts teachers "at risk", but if they are going to advocate strong positions to our children, then families should at least have the right to know about it.  This is definitely true when it comes to sex education also.


Teachers can also teach offensive right-wing agendas, as well.  I fear political witch hunts worse than I fear the real witches out there.  I think that the witch hunters tend to cause far more harm than their prey.  Schools do need to be sensitive to biases in their staff and how that affects the classroom.  In fact, I think that they put a lot of pressure on teachers to conform to popular agendas.  Nevertheless, this is not such a huge problem for children, who need to be exposed to all of these issues.  The problem that we have always had in the US is that we attempt to promote political and religious freedom while simultaneously preventing anyone from discussing religion or politics in public.  If we are going to produce critical thinkers, then we have to expose children to attitudes that can be criticized.
 

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Sorry for being so repetitive, but I am proposing that we:

1) Demand that schools and educators provide candid disclosure,


As long as it does not violate their right to privacy.  The issue here is what they bring to the classroom, not what their private biases are.  BTW, these same standards should apply to private schools, but private schools can more easily avoid exposure to public scrutiny.

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2) Enhance methods of public scrutiny of school curricula,


The PTA already performs this role, so you would need to be clearer about what you mean here.  The last thing we want is for parents to set themselves up as censors over what can and cannot be taught in subjects that they themselves have no expertise in.

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3) Further involve family and community constituents in the debate, and


Again, this seems already to be the case.  Education is a hotly debated topic in many communities.  For example, efforts to inject religious material into science classes has usually been soundly rejected by the public at large.

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4) As much as it is fiscally and logistically reasonable, provide school choice for families.


I believe that the current system provides that within reason.  It is not reasonable to subsidize private education at the expense of public education.

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I am not, however, advocating that schools avoid the subject.


Agreed, but you only want it addressed in a way that will end up making the subject taboo.  Traditionally, public schools have moved away from addressing controversial topics precisely because parents and the community must ultimately approve the tax levies that support them.  That is, they are accountable to the public.  Private schools have to worry about reputation in order to bring in tuitions, but their faux pas are more easily covered up.
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Bdean

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Abstinence Only
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2006, 06:33:20 PM »

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Yes, I'm quite sure that there are bad teachers in the public school system, and some of them will be able to bamboozle their students into thinking that they are good educators. A good educator is not necessarily the most congenial or popular one. This does not suggest to me that the teachers in private systems are necessarily better.


Both of these teachers are, to the best of my knowledge amazing teachers when it comes to measuring their ability to motivate students to obtain high levels of achievement in their courses.  I do not question their skill as educators in the least.  My point was not that they are bad teachers as much as biased teachers; and that all teachers are biased teachers (although this tends to be less significant in an Algebra class than a sex education unit).  Messages get out even when they are not intended.  I suggest that all teaching is, at the heart, autobiographical.  

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Teachers can also teach offensive right-wing agendas, as well. I fear political witch hunts worse than I fear the real witches out there. I think that the witch hunters tend to cause far more harm than their prey. Schools do need to be sensitive to biases in their staff and how that affects the classroom. In fact, I think that they put a lot of pressure on teachers to conform to popular agendas. Nevertheless, this is not such a huge problem for children, who need to be exposed to all of these issues. The problem that we have always had in the US is that we attempt to promote political and religious freedom while simultaneously preventing anyone from discussing religion or politics in public. If we are going to produce critical thinkers, then we have to expose children to attitudes that can be criticized.


But what I am proposing is an attempt to aviod much potential censorship of ideas.  Just put it all out on the table.  I know Christian public school teachers whose main reason for teaching in the public schools is evangelism, but they hide that fact.  I know others with strong agendas to shape the next generation of marxists, atheists, romantics, free-love disciples, and the list goes on.  The best teachers tend to enter the profession to make a difference in the lives of kids, and that difference is very often related to the teacher's idividual belief system and political, social, religious, or a-religious agenda.

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1) Demand that schools and educators provide candid disclosure,  


As long as it does not violate their right to privacy. The issue here is what they bring to the classroom, not what their private biases are. BTW, these same standards should apply to private schools, but private schools can more easily avoid exposure to public scrutiny.


Sure.  Although teaching is a public-eye profession and public statements (and actions) in and out of school are important.  I disagree on the private schools avoiding scrutiny.  They tend to be far more open about what is and is not taught, and teachers can even be fired for actions outside of school.  For example, if I were to cheat on my wife, my school can legally fire me for it, becuase I signed a contract to abide by the standards/values of the school.  

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2) Enhance methods of public scrutiny of school curricula,


The PTA already performs this role, so you would need to be clearer about what you mean here. The last thing we want is for parents to set themselves up as censors over what can and cannot be taught in subjects that they themselves have no expertise in.


Most of what is taught in public schools is not known to the parents and guardians.  I disagree that most PTAs really engage in meaningful dialogue about the ideas and issues that are explored by students in the classroom, and that these idease are frequently impacting curriculum.  I have taken adn taught too many graduate education programs where the instructor, classmates who are administrators, and classmates who are media specialists openly share ways that they intentionally work the thwart efforts to openly discuss curriculum in a public forum.  

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3) Further involve family and community constituents in the debate, and


Again, this seems already to be the case. Education is a hotly debated topic in many communities. For example, efforts to inject religious material into science classes has usually been soundly rejected by the public at large.


Working from your example, I don't think most communities have actually had a lengthy and open debate about issues of religious and areligious agendas in the science curriculum.  Yes, some communities have a handful of folks who get fixated on creation/evolution/intelligent design, but very few really seem to have extended dialogue and negotions about the myriad of other potential issues.  

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4) As much as it is fiscally and logistically reasonable, provide school choice for families.

I believe that the current system provides that within reason. It is not reasonable to subsidize private education at the expense of public education.


Ah.  This is probably near the center of where we disagree.  I believe in the importance of free and available education for all, and that this education should be built upon common standards that promote positive citizenship, thinking skills, etc.  I further support options, within reason for families.  Right now, many families spend $5,000-15,000 a year for excellent private educations, and yet the public schools benefit (they get tax money from these families and they don't have to pay to educate the kid).  Graduates of these schools become presidents, leading scientists, and highly positive contributors to society.  

If all of the private schools in the country were to close today, and the public schools would need to provide and education for these former private school students, what do you think that would do to public schools, taxes, etc.? If a student is getting equal or better academic preparation in the private school, why not let that school take part of the tax money allocated for the education of the child?  Why not just give people choices on where they send their kids and the allocated tax money for the education of those kids?  Sure it would shake things up in the public schools, but maybe a little competition in this form would be good for all involved.  Free and avaialble education to all is, in my opinion, very important to life in a democratic society, but protection of the status quo in public education or maintaining an often less than effective system is not.  It is the idea of free and publicially avaialble education that I value; not the insitution and current form.

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I am not, however, advocating that schools avoid the subject.

Agreed, but you only want it addressed in a way that will end up making the subject taboo. Traditionally, public schools have moved away from addressing controversial topics precisely because parents and the community must ultimately approve the tax levies that support them. That is, they are accountable to the public. Private schools have to worry about reputation in order to bring in tuitions, but their faux pas are more easily covered up.


I definitely do not want it only "addressed in a way that will end up making the subject taboo."  I want options for families.  I want increased freedom and choice in education that is supported by the tax money already allocated for the education of youth.  Yes, there are experts and curriculum developers with families, but I still believe that the invidual family should have extensive say in how the children of that family are educated.  I am only arguing for choice, candid disclosure in all schools, and empowerment of family A to make important decision about the education of the children of family A.

BTW - Isn't what I am describing pretty much what takes place on much of the higher education landscape?  Faculy of public and private universities are quite open about their "agendas."  I, for example, completed a graduate program in the Center for 21st Century Studies at UW Milwaukee...the birthplace of the term postmodernism.  In that center are fellows conducting gay studies, feminist studies, Jewish studies, Islamic studies, radical orthodoxy (out the the Christian reformed tradition) research, Buddhist studies, etc.  These are not just the reserach topics, but the theoretical contruct and philosophical foundation for their research.  When I took a film studies course, I knew that I was taking a cours with a professor who had erotic male nude posters on every inch of the walls in his office.  If I had a problem with that, then I didn't have to go to his office or take his class.  I happened to be fascinated by his background with road movies and took the class.  But, I appreciated the fact that all of this was open and I had a choice. Walking down the halway of the fellows, people had all sorts of political and ideoligical positions represented on their doors.  How refreshing for people to actually be open about what they stand for rather than hiding in fear of some "witch hunt."   Why not do the same (be open) for primary and secondary education?
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ULTRON

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Re: Abstinence Only
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2007, 05:11:27 PM »

Hello everyone,

I
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Zagzagel

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Re: Abstinence Only
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2007, 07:47:01 PM »

ULTRAN.

Ummm... I'm thinking your post here is outa place??  But not really!!!

Perhaps I might be wrong... ??? Umm... me giggling...giggling..giggling.. wait... is giggling a word???

Let me tell you how I honestly feel.  I LOVE... and I mean that.. I LOVE your honesty.  That is it.  I love it.

I think you have a special thing going on that many don't actually experience.

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Cheers.  :)  Be well.  Live better!
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