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Author Topic: Adultery.  (Read 2388 times)

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DevilsAdvocate

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Adultery.
« on: December 13, 2004, 11:14:07 AM »

Quote from: cimics
Sometimes government has to allow people to choose to do what is wrong. Adultery would be an example of that.

not to argue the morality of adultery, i'd love to discuss the scientific and legal standpoints of the statement above.

from a scientific standpoint, monogamy(while not completely absent) is not the perfect, nor widely used used form of procreation in the animal kingdom(of which we are a part)

would laws against adultery be an invasion of privacy?
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The Sasquatch

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Adultery.
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2004, 09:20:19 PM »

of which we are a part of
subtract an "of"

would laws against adultery be an invasion of privacy?
yes.
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jason

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Re: Adultery.
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2004, 10:46:39 PM »

Quote from: DevilsAdvocate
would laws against adultery be an invasion of privacy?


Aren't laws against child pornography, and murder, and drug use, and ________ invasions of privacy, too?
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DevilsAdvocate

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Adultery.
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2004, 12:35:10 AM »

Quote from: jason
...murder...

commiting the act would be an invasion of privacy to begin with, as for laws against it, i cannot see the coorelation to how it would invade your privacy. elaborate on it please.

ok, so, the next deductible question is:

Being that [laws against] adultery would be an invasion of privacy, would said invasion be considered necessary(as with pornography, drug use etc) if adultery is wrong?

edited in the bolded section to mean what i was intending to say.
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The Sasquatch

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Adultery.
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2004, 02:36:53 AM »

Quote
Aren't laws against child pornography, and murder, and drug use, and ________ invasions of privacy, too?


adultery is two (or more!) consenting adults. child pornography and murder are not cases where you have two (or more) consenting adults. drug use? yes it would be...

...but its all grey area anyway, so who knows?
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FUSSCCJ

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Adultery.
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2004, 11:54:01 AM »

This seems to be (as presented) more of a question regarding how much the government should (or should be able to) force people to be 'moral' in cases where the actions do not directly (but certainly indirectly, just like all actions) affect society.  I'm I correct in saying that is the fundamental question here?
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jason

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Adultery.
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2004, 04:39:49 PM »

Quote from: The Sasquatch
adultery is two (or more!) consenting adults. child pornography and murder are not cases where you have two (or more) consenting adults. drug use? yes it would be...


ignoring the 'consent' issue for a moment, because i certainly didn't say anything about it; they still are, strictly speaking, invasions of a person's privacy.  All laws are.
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--Paraphrase of Ecclesiastes 1:16,17

cimics

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Adultery.
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2004, 09:19:21 PM »

would laws against adultery be an invasion of privacy?

I guess that depends in part on what you mean by privacy, but in legal circles it would be considered an invasion of privacy.  Sexual conduct is typically considered to be private.  Any real doubts on that in the US seem to be quelled by the decision in  Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558, 156 L. Ed. 2d 508, 123 S. Ct. 2472, 2003 U.S. LEXIS 5013, 71 U.S.L.W. 4574, 16 Fla. L. Weekly Fed. S 427, 2003 Cal. Daily Op. Service 5559, 2003 D.A.R. 7036 (2003)

The question, then, would be whether the invasion of privacy would be justified.  With adultery, you would have a stronger case than with homosexuality because a third party is directly affected.  Nevertheless, modern democratic societies have judged that the kind of harm that would be prevented is not worth the costs.  Not only have criminal sanctions disappeared, but so have civil sanctions.  There used to be a cause of action for "alienation of affections" in Texas, but there isn't anymore.

And I don't think that the issue is necessarily the severity of the harm, so much as it is the type of harm.  Choosing one's sexual partner implicates basic freedoms of determination and privacy interests.  So, government should keep its hands off, even when it is clear that the parties are doing wrong.  This is only true, of course, when the sexual activity is between consenting adults.
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DevilsAdvocate

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Adultery.
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2004, 10:17:56 PM »

Quote from: FUSSCCJ
This seems to be (as presented) more of a question regarding how much the government should (or should be able to) force people to be 'moral' in cases where the actions do not directly (but certainly indirectly, just like all actions) affect society.  I'm I correct in saying that is the fundamental question here?


that would be a fair statement, you could even subnote the statement as why government regulates certain moral laws(ie homosexuality, drug use) and does not regulate others(ie adultery)
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nojc4me

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Adultery.
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2004, 12:49:11 AM »

Your definition seems to be deceptive. You allow for only monogamy and adultery. You ignore celebacy and polygamy.
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"Hope" - Aaron Zelman & L. Neil Smith
"The Probability Broach" - L. Neil Smith
"Wizard's First Rule" - Terry Goodkind (Check out the rest of the series, too.)
"The Constitution of the United States" - input from various American Statesmen (Read that as "Old, wealthy white men, now dead, who were often seen to be wearing wigs and hose in public.")

DevilsAdvocate

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Adultery.
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2004, 01:44:30 AM »

Quote from: nojc4me
Your definition seems to be deceptive.

what definition?

Quote from: nojc4me
You allow for only monogamy and adultery. You ignore celebacy and polygamy.

adultery is the topic, not that i'm not open to discuss these, but the subject brought up was adultery.
corret me if i'm wrong, but polygamy would be just be the ability to marry more than one man/woman? or does that include have sexual relations with additional men/women not legally in wedlock with the man/woman of question?
and celebacy would be the personal decision just not to have sexual relations, although under some definitions it is "to be unmarried"; which would exclude(IMO) it from the topic of adultery, how can one have sexual relations while in wedlock, if he/she is not married or does not have sexual relations?
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FUSSCCJ

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Adultery.
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2004, 01:44:28 PM »

Quote from: cimics
The question, then, would be whether the invasion of privacy would be justified.


Exactly...but that of course presupposes a definition of 'privacy' as determinded mainly by Supreme Court justices in the 1900s.  I don't know if we want to talk specifically about the laws of one nation (US, Britian, Thailand) or if this is to be discussing privacy in a general context of political theory.  Devil's Advocate, could you clear that up?
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DevilsAdvocate

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Adultery.
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2004, 02:48:34 PM »

i'm thinking mainly of US law, although i'd be open to discussion on the general beliefs of privacy within the standard democratic style politcal system.

only reason i'm privy to us law is that born and raised here, and as an ignorant american, never studied too much about other nations current law systems.
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FUSSCCJ

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Adultery.
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2004, 07:53:10 PM »

In that case, I think cimics says it all: Lawerence v. Texas.  The Supreme Court said that's what the law says so that's the law.  I was a 5-1-3 decision so there is room to question the interpretation of the law, but as the what the law acutally is, there's no question that under current law it is an unjust and illegal invasion of privacy.
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Sir Somebody Something

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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2004, 10:10:23 PM »

The way I think laws should run are like this (and remember that this is a very loose rule of thumb):

1 - Actions that infringe another person's natural rights (we all know what those are, don't we), cause anyone harm (even the one who committed the act in the first place), cause a person emotional harm, or put a person or persons in physical danger, or else have potential to harm society in general, should be considered illegal. Examples: Murder, theft, drug use, child neglect, etc. It's a long list.

2 - Actions that do none of the above should be considered legal, even if morally questionable. It is up to the individual to decide whether or not they should take part in these activities. Examples: Adultery, homosexuality, pornography, etc. It's an even longer list.

Of course I've no experience in matters of legality, so feel free to ignore my opinions on this...

...but, yes, as there is no harm caused by adultery (assuming the two concenting adults or teens took proper precautions), it would be a gross breach of privacy to illegalize it. Even though adultery is not something I agree with... it's something that must be tolerated.

So in other words, I side with cimics.
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Sir Somebody Something,
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cimics

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Adultery.
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2004, 09:26:30 AM »

2 - Actions that do none of the above should be considered legal, even if morally questionable. It is up to the individual to decide whether or not they should take part in these activities. Examples: Adultery, homosexuality, pornography, etc. It's an even longer list.

Of course I've no experience in matters of legality, so feel free to ignore my opinions on this...

...but, yes, as there is no harm caused by adultery (assuming the two concenting adults or teens took proper precautions), it would be a gross breach of privacy to illegalize it. Even though adultery is not something I agree with... it's something that must be tolerated.

So in other words, I side with cimics.


But I would take issue somewhat with your characterization.  Adultery definately DOES cause harm to others when we are talking about cheating on your spouse, which is what I understood DA to be talking about (since it keyed off one of my posts in another thread).  But my position is that even some things that harm non-participants should be off-limits to government.  Name-calling is emotionally harmful, for example, but there shouldn't be a law against it.  That doesn't mean, of course, that social pressure cannot be exerted against people who do such things.
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Sir Somebody Something

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Adultery.
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2004, 09:32:23 AM »

Oh, I quite agree, cim. Hence a very loose rule of thumb and my admitting to no actual experience in the matter of legality.

I'm clueless, really. People should just ignore everything I say; it'd probably make things less complicated.
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Sir Somebody Something,
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"Put on the full armor of God... and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."
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DevilsAdvocate

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Adultery.
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2004, 01:17:21 PM »

Quote from: cimics
Name-calling is emotionally harmful, for example, but there shouldn't be a law against it.

yet hate crimes exist.
using certain derogatory names in a hurtful manner can get someone into alot of legal trouble.
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nrthsll

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Adultery.
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2004, 03:04:01 PM »

Maybe adultery should not be illegal in the sense that there be punishment for the "crime", but I think protection and justification for the spouse left behind should be afforded.  Since mariage is sort of like a contract, the party breaking the contract forfeits all rights to acumulated wealth, goods and custody of the children (that is unless the recieving party can be shown to be a bad parent).
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cimics

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Adultery.
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2004, 04:05:38 PM »

yet hate crimes exist.

What we ordinarily think of as "hate crimes" are acts that are criminal without the "hate" element but are considered worse because of the "hate" element.  Murdering someone on account of race, for example.  There are not ordinarily "hate" crimes (in America anyway) that consist SOLELY of the "hate" element.  The First Amendment is a big reason for that.  And I tend to agree with that policy.

More to the point, however, the question is whether certain hurtful behavior ought to be criminalized (or otherwise subject to Government restraint), and my basic point is that there are some behaviors, even though hurtful, that Government should not do anything about.

using certain derogatory names in a hurtful manner can get someone into alot of legal trouble.

It depends on the nature of the "hurtful manner" that is being talked about.  Libel and slander are actionable in civil court, but the "harm" there goes beyond emotionally harming the object of the speech, extending to reputation and even financial consequences.  

And that brings up another issue: the nature of government regulation of conduct.  Criminal sanctions are not the only way in which government plays a role in regulating conduct.  Civil sanctions also play a large role, and clearly, some things that should not be subject to criminal liability ought to be subject to civil liability.  

In the case of adultery, I would submit that permissible sanctions are very limited.  As nrthsll suggests, taking that into account in divorce proceedings would be legitimate, although I don't necessarily agree that it should be an automatic "forfeit every right you have" type of sanction.  The degree of sanction involved ought to turn upon the facts of the particular case.  But divorce proceedings are a very limited case -- essentially the parties have implicated the government through a contractual-type relationship.  That's a little bit different than government interposing itself (civilly or criminally) where it was not invited.
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