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TheAntiChrist

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Church Tax
« on: February 22, 2005, 05:55:27 PM »

FLAP OVER BUSH, FAITH-BASED INITIATIVE SMEARS EFFORTS TO PROTECT
               SEPARATION, STOP "RELIGION TAX"

Remarks made by a former Bush administration operative earlier this
week "insult those who question the effort to subsidize religious
groups with tax money and protect the separation of church and state,"
charged an Atheist civil rights group.

David Kuo, who served as Deputy Director for the White House Office of
Faith-based and Community Initiatives groused that the Bush
Administration failed to appropriate sufficient money to churches and
other sectarian groups involved in operating social welfare programs.
His comments originally appeared on the web site beliefnet.com, and on
Tuesday were carried in The Washington Post.

"Mr.  Kuo is not only skewing the truth about the sheer size and
significance of the faith-based initiative," said Ellen Johnson,
president of American Atheists, "he is insulting those who have
legitimate concerns that this experiment is fleecing the taxpayers and
violating the separation of church and state."

In his essay, Kuo charged that those in congress who did not support
the scheme to use public money to fund religion-based programs were
guilty of "knee jerk opposition."  He also described the concerns of
those opposing the use of tax funds to repair dilapidated churches
under the guise of "historic preservation" as mere "jabbering."

"Mr. Kuo says he wishes to help the poor, but he and other supporters
of the faith-based initiative are undermining constitutional
protections and imposing a de facto 'Religion Tax' on Americans,
including millions of Atheists and other nonbelievers who do not
accept religious creeds," said Johnson.

Dave Silverman, Communications Director for American Atheists, said
that Kuo was also skewing the facts about the size of the faith-based
initiative's impact on the budget.

"He says that Bush failed to secure $8 billion in funding, but the
truth is that the president has used his Executive Orders to make over
$60 billion available to churches and other religious groups."

"This is the biggest transfer of public money from the treasury to the
coffers of organized religion," said Silverman.  It amounts to a
'Religion Tax,' and there are better ways to help the poor and needy
without gutting the First Amendment to our constitution."

(American Atheists is a nationwide movement that defends the civil
rights of nonbelievers; works for the separation of church and state;
and addresses issues of First Amendment public policy.)
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jason

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Church Tax
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2005, 06:36:50 PM »

If you can prove that churches are for-profit organizations, then sure, they should be taxed.

But your question doesn't seem at all relevant to the essay you posted...
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TheAntiChrist

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Church Tax
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2005, 06:48:39 PM »

The Catholic Church in paticular owns stocks and I am pretty sure that the pope is not a priest.
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ShineLikeStars

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Church Tax
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2005, 02:00:53 PM »

Quote from: TheAntiChrist
The Catholic Church in paticular owns stocks and I am pretty sure that the pope is not a priest.


What stocks does the Catholic Church own?
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Soli Deo Gloria

jason

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Church Tax
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2005, 11:04:43 PM »

Anti, the point of your essay was asking this question,

Should the government subsidize the church?

... which is practically the OPPOSITE of the question you asked at the top of this thread
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Gagezilla

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Church Tax
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2005, 04:13:08 PM »

Ok, so here's an odd angle to the original post-

If faith based initiatives ultimately end up using the money to help people, ALL people including atheists, isn't the money being used to help people as the atheists are screaming it should be?  Why does it have to go to atheist groups?  I get the feeling atheist groups would help only themselves to further their agenda, since that will be your response about the christian groups...

But seriously, if it is used for the help of everyone, what does it matter what group it goes to?
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KalikaScott

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Church Tax
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2005, 04:38:28 PM »

Quote from: Gagezilla
Ok, so here's an odd angle to the original post-

If faith based initiatives ultimately end up using the money to help people, ALL people including atheists, isn't the money being used to help people as the atheists are screaming it should be?  Why does it have to go to atheist groups?  I get the feeling atheist groups would help only themselves to further their agenda, since that will be your response about the christian groups...

But seriously, if it is used for the help of everyone, what does it matter what group it goes to?



It matters because the more churches are subsadized the more they feel they have a right to push their beliefs onto others.

To the question above the post, why should churches be allowed to make all that money when the economy could use it. Atheists have to pay taxes... so should religious organizations. It's not separation of religion and state... it's punishing those who choose not to believe and it's wrong.
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TheAntiChrist

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Church Tax
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2005, 05:07:53 PM »

Quote
It matters because the more churches are subsadized the more they feel they have a right to push their beliefs onto others.

To the question above the post, why should churches be allowed to make all that money when the economy could use it. Atheists have to pay taxes... so should religious organizations. It's not separation of religion and state... it's punishing those who choose not to believe and it's wrong.

Right on target! :D
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Gagezilla

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Church Tax
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2005, 11:33:00 AM »

Would it not be the same for atheist groups with their message?  Why should churches be allowed to make money?  To fund the programs that help people!?!  Look, my church specifically has programs in place to help people out.  Individuals from the church will mow the lawn of an old widow, we put on a new roof for a young lady who has children and was recently widowed.  We have a benevolence fund that is used to pay light bills, water bills, etc. for people who are going through hard times in our community (which, incidentally, plugs that money into local economies through those companies).  I volunteer my services for people who are in need, as do other church members, and my wife/other wives cook meals and donate food to families that need it- we drive right up in the driveway and drop it off, firsthand.  I know, I've done it.  This takes money to do, and we don't cover only the "christians" down on their luck- we go where it is needed, regardless of faith.  The food and groceries are bought at local stores, which also stimulates our local economy.  You believe you can do better?  Get out of your own living room and do it, with whatever funds you can do it with, government or otherwise.   It has nothing to do with message, it has to do with action.
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jason

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Church Tax
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2005, 12:17:04 PM »

Quote from: KalikaScott
To the question above the post, why should churches be allowed to make all that money when the economy could use it. Atheists have to pay taxes... so should religious organizations. It's not separation of religion and state... it's punishing those who choose not to believe and it's wrong.


show me an atheistic, nonprofit organization that pays taxes on its income, and then we'll talk.
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--Paraphrase of Ecclesiastes 1:16,17

Anthony Horvath

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Church Tax
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2005, 12:22:50 PM »

What does not paying taxes have to do with pushing one's beliefs on someone else?  And more importantly, what's wrong with pushing one's beliefs?  I thought this was a free country, with freedom of expression, freedom of religion, etc, etc.  Man, what was I thinking.  Kalika, please don't express yourself anymore, because when you do you are pushing your beliefs on me and apparently that's wrong.  ;)

My view, however, is that non-profits should be taxed, but only if the whole tax structure was changed.  I have ideas on how to do that, but its probably a different conversation.
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SoughtFound&Alive

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Church Tax
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2005, 03:36:01 PM »

I'll even be so bold as to give folks the impression that I"m hijacking this thread to turn the tables on you.  Prove to me that separation of church and state is even constitutional.   :shock:
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Gagezilla

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Church Tax
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2005, 03:58:18 PM »

There has always been an implied connection between God and our country.  The founding fathers were said to have stopped debates, prayed, and reconvened with cooler heads.  I would say their intention was for the establishment of a state run by the people, with an understanding that this country was a gift from God.  No official theology, but certainly a connection.  Athiests are seeking to rewrite history and remove the original intention without so much as a shred of evidence that they meant to establish an official religion for America.
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KalikaScott

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Church Tax
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2005, 05:29:52 PM »

Quote from: sntjohnny
What does not paying taxes have to do with pushing one's beliefs on someone else?  And more importantly, what's wrong with pushing one's beliefs?  I thought this was a free country, with freedom of expression, freedom of religion, etc, etc.  Man, what was I thinking.  Kalika, please don't express yourself anymore, because when you do you are pushing your beliefs on me and apparently that's wrong.  ;)

My view, however, is that non-profits should be taxed, but only if the whole tax structure was changed.  I have ideas on how to do that, but its probably a different conversation.



I'm sorry you didn't understand my post.

I'll tell you what's wrong with pushing your beliefs on someone else. You may have the right to free speach but so do they. They have the right not to have a million different religions trying to tell them what to believe. You don't like me telling you your God isn't the right God... Nor do I have the right to tell you so because we have FREEDOM OF RELIGION. That means I can believe what I want and nobody has the right to tell me otherwise.
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Anthony Horvath

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Church Tax
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2005, 07:50:39 PM »

"I'll tell you what's wrong with pushing your beliefs on someone else. You may have the right to free speach but so do they."

Right.  So both sides get to push their beliefs.  You haven't said anything yet about why its wrong, just that others have a right to do the same.  I totally agree.

"They have the right not to have a million different religions trying to tell them what to believe."

Wait a minute.  That is EXACTLY the opposite of what you just said.  Remember, you said:  "you may have the right to free speech but so do they."  

Are you trying to tell me that in some twisted way you think that trying to tell someone what they should believe does not fit into the category of free speech?  Your middle name isn't Lenin is it?  ;)

"You don't like me telling you your God isn't the right God..."

Actually, since I'm a grown up I don't particularly care what you say.  Don't get me wrong.  I'm just saying that I'm well past taking anything people out there say personally.

"Nor do I have the right to tell you so because we have FREEDOM OF RELIGION."

This again is the opposite of what you just said.  Freedom of religion and freedom of speech both mean that in fact you DO have the right to tell me what you think. You have the right to talk all you want.  I have a right not to listen.  

"That means I can believe what I want and nobody has the right to tell me otherwise."

AMEN!

Why do I have the strange feeling that when you think of religions 'pushing themselves' on others you actually mean religions tying people down and forcing them to watch Charlie Brown re-runs until they convert, or if that doesn't work, electroshock indoctrination to the genitalia.  If that's what you mean, I certainly agree.

If all you mean is a thousand religions having the right to say that they are right and the others are wrong, then I think you are missing some important steps somewhere.  Freedom of speech and freedom of religion precisely mean that you can believe what you want and live according to your religious precepts as well as talk about it.  If it doesn't mean that, its a re-definition of the word 'free.'

However, I think I'm more interested in hearing how any of this has to do with whether or not they are not taxed.
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KalikaScott

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Church Tax
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2005, 03:02:48 AM »

I'm sorry you distorted what I said... once again.


I was wondering the same thing... you're the one that brought it up.
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Church Tax
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2005, 05:46:17 AM »

"I'm sorry you distorted what I said... once again."

Actually, I'm not distorting anything.  I don't even think you are aware of the fact that in one little paragraph you argued opposite propositions not once, but twice.   Naturally that sort of thing is hard to interpret.  What I'm really trying to do is figure out what it is you mean.  You seem to REALLY not like people 'pushing their religion' on people and even think it isn't a right while at the same time think we have freedom of speech and religion.  Something doesn't add up.  Perhaps you should try again.

"I was wondering the same thing... you're the one that brought it up."

Au Contraire.

Please see your post on Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:38 pm where you said:

"It matters because the more churches are subsadized the more they feel they have a right to push their beliefs onto others."

I see no relationship at all between 'subsidized' churches and their 'feeling' that they have a 'right to push their beliefs onto others.'   I know quite a bit of churches that are 'subsidized' yet couldn't be provoked with Satan's pitchfork to actually talk about their beliefs, let alone 'push' them.   And this is where we got into the secondary issue of 'pushing their beliefs.'

I'm almost certain that the concept of 'pushing' is an entirely subjective one.  Its not as though a non-taxed organization is by that virtue able to enter the school system or some other private organization's facilities and take over the programming there.   What is 'pushing' to you?  Do you have any objective measure of the term?  Or do you just mean "Anything I hear that I deem offensive" ?
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Gagezilla

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Church Tax
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2005, 02:31:09 PM »

I go to church, and I feel taxed right now... :)
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TheAntiChrist

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Church Tax
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2005, 04:54:01 PM »

lol
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