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Author Topic: Commit Civil Disobedience  (Read 1256 times)

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8d82thebone

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Commit Civil Disobedience
« on: December 12, 2005, 11:05:22 AM »

Wish someone "Merry Christmas" today!
Recently a call-in radio program discussed the issue of whether or not people are really personally offended by reading/hearing 'Merry Christmas'. A Muslim caller stated that he was never offended by it, and often wished his Christian friends and acquaintances the same, as well as 'Happy Hanukkah' to his Jewish ones. Is it just a passing issue, or is it instead yet another thinly veiled attack on Christian traditions by the secular/humanist establishment?

Suggested reading: 'Mind Seige' , (Tim LaHaye)
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"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God?"    -Quote from the Jefferson Memorial
                                              Washington D.C.
"Besides being complicated, reality, in my experience, is usually odd. It is not neat, not obvious, not what you expect...Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed."
                        'Mere Christianity' , C.S. Lewis

Copernicus

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Re: Commit Civil Disobedience
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2005, 09:03:51 PM »

I am not personally offended when people wish me well, even if their way of doing it misses the mark.  It does make me uncomfortable to see politicians making blatant appeals to their religious constituents, but it doesn't offend me as much as when they go out of their way to say disparaging things about people who lack religion.  A politician would lose nothing to wish "Happy Holidays" in addition to "Merry Christmas", but there has been an amazing number of people who express offense at hearing and seeing the more neutral "Seasons Greetings" and "Happy Holidays".  They seem to want non-Christians to be sent a message, and they want THEIR (not our) government to drive it home.
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Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  --Anonymous

nojc4me

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Commit Civil Disobedience
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2005, 09:39:52 PM »

I agree with (at least) the first line of Copernicus' post.
I appreciate it when people wish me well, whether it's "Happy holidays" or "Peace be upon you". I may prefer a person would not bring up the name of his favorite pagan deity, but you don't look a gift horse in the mouth. (There may never have been a better use for that particular expression.) It seems to be like complaining about the color of the new car one's great uncle might give one for graduation. The graduate just got a new car, who cares if it's too bright in color?
I oppose government promoting one particular religion above another, so I oppose requiring students recite the Pledge of Allegiance in school; but I also oppose the use of the government to forbid a private business or citizen from promoting his own personal religious beliefs. So it's fine with me if a store has a policy of having "greeters" and cashiers use "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Pagan god/man-birthday!" (or whatever), or even vice versa, a store requiring its employees to wish customers a "Merry Christmas". If the employee doesn't want to do it, he can go find employment elsewhere, and the employer can find somebody who will follow instructions. It's also okay with me if the pagans (or  whoever) refuse to shop in such a store. But they should not be able to have a "law" passed that would keep stores from allowing their employees from promoting christmas while acting as agents of the store. You want to promote christmas and the store's management opposes it, then do it on your own time. (Interestingly, the military approves of military personnel attending religious services in the house of worship of the military member's choice - even in uniform.)
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Suggested Reading list:
"You Take jesus, I'll Take God" - Sam Levine
"The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" - Robert Heinlein
"Hope" - Aaron Zelman & L. Neil Smith
"The Probability Broach" - L. Neil Smith
"Wizard's First Rule" - Terry Goodkind (Check out the rest of the series, too.)
"The Constitution of the United States" - input from various American Statesmen (Read that as "Old, wealthy white men, now dead, who were often seen to be wearing wigs and hose in public.")

Copernicus

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Commit Civil Disobedience
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2005, 02:52:46 AM »

Are there ANY laws that try to require businesses not to say "Merry Christmas"?  Not only would that be bizarre, but it would probably be unconstitutional.  The Establishment Clause doesn't just forbid government endorsements of religion, but also government restrictions on it.  If stores choose to ban "Merry Christmas" from store greetings, they are probably just being overcautious not to offend anyone.  In the process, they offend more people than they please.
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Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  --Anonymous

TheAtheistHeratic

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Commit Civil Disobedience
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2005, 04:44:28 PM »

In my oppinion a store can legally and constitutionally have a Merry Christmas or it's Jesus's Birthday, but I wouldn't shop there if they had the Jesus thing. Some of the small business's in my town have things like that.
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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." (Washington, D.C., April 1999) [2]

"One of the great achievements of science has been, if not to make it impossible for intelligent people to be religious, then at least to make it possible for them not to be religious. We should not retreat from this accomplishment." (ibid.)
[edit]

Both quotes of Steven Weinberg

dark territory

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Commit Civil Disobedience
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2005, 08:19:35 PM »

Try living in a major metropolitan area some time if you can handle the diversity. There are religous ornaments just about every where. It certainly is a heterogeneous location where I am. I have known people that have left because they can not accept the diversity of it all. I think it's pretty cool. I see Kwanzaa, and Hanukkah, Christmas, and Xmas. It's pretty interesting. I seem to wish whoever what ever at the time I see them. It may be happy holidays, or it maybe a merry christmas, or same to you. I don't like being so ridged with hello or good bye.
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Peace. God be with you. Blessings.

TheAtheistHeratic

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Commit Civil Disobedience
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2005, 03:48:02 PM »

On all my holiday gifts the card says "Happy XMas".
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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." (Washington, D.C., April 1999) [2]

"One of the great achievements of science has been, if not to make it impossible for intelligent people to be religious, then at least to make it possible for them not to be religious. We should not retreat from this accomplishment." (ibid.)
[edit]

Both quotes of Steven Weinberg

Heretic

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Commit Civil Disobedience
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2005, 08:18:37 AM »

Three little children were leaving the principals office after receiving their just punishments for offences committed.

 The first child says "I got sent in for saying the word $#!T. How about you two?"

Second child says "I said the word F@(%".

Third child says "I said Christmas".

 [cool
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Silly Christians. Myths are for kids! [baby

If there are no Atheists in foxholes then WTF was I doing there?!

 Certainty of death, small chance of success? What are we waiting for?! --Gimli the Dwarf

I am perfectly happy to say that gods are a logical possibility. There is just no reasonable evidence to license such a belief. --Copernicus

8d82thebone

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Commit Civil Disobedience
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2005, 10:54:56 AM »

As some of you may or may not know, this year's Miss Universe is a U of Toronto student Natalie Klebova. She is very active in the worldwide AIDS movement, and a very nice person I'm sure, as well as being quite attractive too. A few months ago, she was to be something like an emcee at a Thai festival in downtown Toronto but at the last minute a municipal beurocrat(did I spell that right?) pointed out a municipal bylaw prohibiting any acitivity such as beauty pageants(which are deemed to be degrading to women), or activities that glorified sexual stereotypes, from being held in or sponsored by the City of Toronto.
 Needless to say, the Thai community (as well as most others with any sense) were quite offended by this senseless slap in the face. The mayor of T.O. was quite embarrassed by the whole issue but all he could do was to allow her to be present not as Miss Universe, but as miss "person of distinction and community interest," or something stupid like that. Needless to say she declined, and Political Correctness ruined an otherwise cool day for a lot of people.
 What's interesting is that the Toronto Gay Pride parade was held without a hitch a couple of weeks before that...
Where does it end?...
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"God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God?"    -Quote from the Jefferson Memorial
                                              Washington D.C.
"Besides being complicated, reality, in my experience, is usually odd. It is not neat, not obvious, not what you expect...Reality, in fact, is usually something you could not have guessed. That is one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It is a religion you could not have guessed."
                        'Mere Christianity' , C.S. Lewis

Copernicus

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Commit Civil Disobedience
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2005, 12:15:20 AM »

8d8, the left has no monopoly on political correctness.  Look at O'Reilly's tirade against the trumped up "war on Christmas".  We can't even wish each other "Happy Holidays" without the zealots jumping on us for disrespecting Christians.
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Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned.  --Anonymous

TheAtheistHeratic

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Commit Civil Disobedience
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2005, 03:56:58 PM »

Gays! Yuck!   :-&
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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." (Washington, D.C., April 1999) [2]

"One of the great achievements of science has been, if not to make it impossible for intelligent people to be religious, then at least to make it possible for them not to be religious. We should not retreat from this accomplishment." (ibid.)
[edit]

Both quotes of Steven Weinberg

Zagzagel

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Commit Civil Disobedience
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2005, 10:07:54 PM »

Early last week, I was on my way home from a family occasion (not a happy one, mind you).  I got lost in a big city.  I turned off to a busy express to luckily find a gas bar.  I put some gas in my vehicle and then asked the attendants the specific highway to my destinatation.  They didn't know.  To my blessing, an older fellow walked in just as they were trying to figure out the route I was asking for and this older fellow slid in to correct my problem.  He gave me the exact route and was careful to make me understand the simplist route possible for my destinatation.  I then took his hand, thanked him, and greeted him with glad tidings of "have a merry Christmas"...or something to that effect..LOL.  Before opening the door to leave the gas bar, he looked at me and asked me where I was from....

He never did wish me a Merry Christmas, but his facial expression sure did appreciate my deep thankfulfulness and genuine thanksgiving.

And just to note, the route he gave me was simple and led me straight to my destination...HOME!! [biggrin
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Cheers.  :)  Be well.  Live better!
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