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Analytical

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inheritance tax examples
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2005, 12:06:47 PM »

I can tell by some of the rhetoric that incorrect assumptions are being made about how this tax is applied. I went through this recently. Some notes:
1) The person that dies has to have a net worth of over approximately $1,000,000 (goes up every year) before any tax is paid.
2) Tax is only paid on the amount over $1,500,000. It has been going up.
3) The rate for 2005 is 47%. It has been going down.
4) Any family that has a net worth of say $5,000,000 can do things, e.g. setting up a trust, splitting the assets between family members, gifting over the years, so that when a family member dies his legal net worth at death can be as little as $2,000,000 without even trying. So his estate pays $235,000, 4.7% of the family
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nojc4me

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Inheritance tax?
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2005, 05:28:53 PM »

FUSSCCJ said:

If unemployment is a requirement for our economy,

It's not "required" any more than death is "required." It is simply a fact of life, all over the world, and in every economy, even the authoritarian ones where employment is "mandatory" and jobs are assigned.

... then those who are unemployed will have an income problem (or create a crime problem). In this case, either these people need to be taken care of (and while it would be nice to assume that families and charities would deal with all of it, history shows that's not the case) or left to suffer horrible (most would say unacceptable) living conditions.

"Need to be taken care of"? As in "Poor widdow baby, did ooo forget how to earn a wivving?"
If that's the case, fine. Private donations, and that's it.
No tax money. None at all.
Why? Because taxes (usually much higher than the person approves of) are removed from the person by force of arms, whereas donations are removed from the person voluntarily, and in amounts the person necessarily approves of.

Now we could tell them to all just go out and get jobs, but the economy will have a certain amount of unemployment no matter what skills the unemployed have and how hard they try to get jobs. Do we just say, "Sucks to be you, glad I'm not in your position" and leave them be? Do we pray to the free market god in the hope that he will solve the problem? Do we rely on the good will of the employed?

Yes. These all sound like ideas that will work.

Do we tell the government to help them? Do we require communities to take care of them?

No. It doesn't work, and never will.
Why? Because when the government gives money away (money that wasn't earned, but confiscated),  inperpetuity, to "poor" people who didn't earn it,  then there will be ever increasing numbers of "the poor." We see this happening with all sorts of government hand outs.
OTOH, the Salvation Army and Goodwill used to do roughly the same thing that the government is trying to do now. But they had a vested interest in actually getting the "down and out" back on their feet so that they could become productive members of society again, and have some measure of selfff-esteem. The current governemt eternal charity scheme winds up destroying a person's desire to get ahead on his own merit, and encourages sloth and fraud (so that the pewrson can look like (s)he's poor, but either isn't - or is, but is doing nothing to change that.  

How should we deal with these people?

I think that Neil Boortz would answer that with, "With disgust and disdain." AIUI, he's of the opinion that the poor are not "unfortunate", but "slackers who habitually make bad choices."
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Suggested Reading list:
"You Take jesus, I'll Take God" - Sam Levine
"The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" - Robert Heinlein
"Hope" - Aaron Zelman & L. Neil Smith
"The Probability Broach" - L. Neil Smith
"Wizard's First Rule" - Terry Goodkind (Check out the rest of the series, too.)
"The Constitution of the United States" - input from various American Statesmen (Read that as "Old, wealthy white men, now dead, who were often seen to be wearing wigs and hose in public.")

nojc4me

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Inheritance tax?
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2005, 08:50:31 PM »

Analytical,

If the tax were 1 cent an just one person, it would be too much.
That a person can amass wealth is one of the things that encourages a man to amass wealth. The people who amass wealth are the ones who hire other people, so that they can also amass wealth.
There is no claim on that wealth that any person or group of persons can make to that wealth that should be given a bit of credence, save if the person who had the wealth contracted with another for goods or services, or when the person voluntarily gives some or all of the wealth to another person.
In short, taxes for the express purpose of wealth redistribution are unjust in that they seek to lay claim to someone else's stuff.
They are counter-productive because they hamper those who can hire from doing so because they have lost some of their wealth through the tax.
They are counter-productive because they punish productivity.
They are counter-productive because they reward sloth and fraud.
Now, you know how I hate to admit that there would be anything in the NT with which I might agree, but 2 Thes. 3, especially vs. 10, shows that the one who will not work, let him not eat.
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Suggested Reading list:
"You Take jesus, I'll Take God" - Sam Levine
"The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" - Robert Heinlein
"Hope" - Aaron Zelman & L. Neil Smith
"The Probability Broach" - L. Neil Smith
"Wizard's First Rule" - Terry Goodkind (Check out the rest of the series, too.)
"The Constitution of the United States" - input from various American Statesmen (Read that as "Old, wealthy white men, now dead, who were often seen to be wearing wigs and hose in public.")

Analytical

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Inheritance tax?
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2005, 05:20:01 PM »

Quote from: nojc4me


If the tax were 1 cent an just one person, it would be too much.


Absolutes, just one penny! No JC for me, it sounds like you have a religion already.

Quote from: nojc4me
That a person can amass wealth is one of the things that encourages a man to amass wealth.


I don
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cimics

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Inheritance tax?
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2005, 10:10:45 PM »

The problem I have with efforts to get rid of the inheritance tax are two words called DEFICIT and DEBT that are attached to FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

The fact is, the FG is going to spend money on lots of stuff.  They have to get it from somewhere.  Inheritance tax is one tax that comes from gains that are not earned where someone truly receives a windfall.  From what I understand, it's a significant amount of money.  So, what tax are we going to replace it with, because either that's going to happen or we're going to get more DEBT, which will create more INTEREST, which will require further revenues to pay off.
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Analytical

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Inheritance tax?
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2005, 02:02:42 PM »

Quote from: cimics
The problem I have with efforts to get rid of the inheritance tax are two words called DEFICIT and DEBT that are attached to FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
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Hiersekorn

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Inheritance tax?
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2005, 02:26:39 PM »

First, I should say that I am an estate planning lawyer, and estate tax planning is a large part of my daily work life.  

A couple of random thoughts...

We do not tax inheritances in this country (at least not at the federal level).  We tax "estates," which means the tax is on the amount owned at death, not on the amount received by the heirs.  Although it's a subtle distinction, it has enormous impact on policy and practice.

A couple of people have mentioned the planning techniques that rich people can use to reduce their estate taxes.  That's true, but let's not pretend that the techniques are just loopholes sitting around waiting for someone to say the magic word.  There are really only four things you can do with your assets from an estate planning perspective.  (1) give them to your heirs during your lifetime; (2) sell them to your heirs during your lifetime; (3) give them to charity; or (4) give them to your heirs through your estate.

Giving assets away is a good technique, but large gifts (at once or over a lifetime) incur a tax just as if they were passed through the estate.

Sales have to be above-board, (i.e. for full market value) or they, too, will incur a tax.

In large part, then, the techniques for reducing estate taxes involve giving large amounts to charity.

So, when you look around at the privately-funded colleges, museums, homeless shelters, and so forth, remember that you are seeing the end-product of rich people reducing their estate taxes.  In fact, many charities are in an uproar over the proposed elimination of the death tax, because they fear it will hurt their income.  Of course, the charities don't have the benefit of sitting with the donors, as I do, and seeing that for about 80 percent of them, the primary motivation is philanthropy, not estate tax reduction.

Regarding the larger moral question of whether the estate tax is good or bad, I'll not comment now -- mainly because I see that you all have done a very good job of presenting the arguments, and I would just be redundant.
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David Hiersekorn

Analytical

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Inheritance tax?
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2005, 12:28:27 AM »

David,

Thanks for the insights. Yes, and if its property you have to get an acreditied appraisals etc.

Do you think "Death Tax" is the right term to use or just the Right term that is used. I've met quite a few people that think that everyone pays Death Tax upon their death, and I think I know how they got that idea.

In general I assume that family members are not left with a pitance when philanthropy is a large part of the planing. It would be interesting to have you share an estimate of the average size of an estate where over $500,000 is used for philanthropy.
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Hiersekorn

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Inheritance tax?
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2005, 09:35:52 PM »

Quote from: Analytical
In general I assume that family members are not left with a pitance when philanthropy is a large part of the planing. It would be interesting to have you share an estimate of the average size of an estate where over $500,000 is used for philanthropy.


It's hard to set any hard and fast rules.  In my last post, I left off using life insurance as a wealth replacement tool.  (i.e. buying life insurance to replace the death taxes.)

Most people tend to use insurance up to double the amount of the estate tax exemption.  For example, right now estates in excess of $6 million start to fall into the sweet spot for charitable planning.  That's just a rule of thumb, though.

The amount of the charitable donation is essentially equal to the estate tax that would be paid.  The calculations involve more complex time value of money issues, but it basically works out to be dollar-for-dollar shifting of tax to charity.

A lot, of course, depends on the charitable inclinations of the client, but I'd say generally that anyone with an estate in excess of $7.5 million is going to end up giving $500,000 to charity in one way or another.

By way of example, Sam Walton (actually his widow) has set aside so much money for charity that when his widow passes away, Arkansas is going to experience a cultural and scientific revolution like we've never seen.  The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is another example of this, although they also demonstrate the philanthropic tendencies of the wealthy, as they have given far more to charity than their estates will ever require merely as tax planning.
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David Hiersekorn

Analytical

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Inheritance tax?
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2005, 02:33:58 PM »

Hiersekorn,

Thanks. As you describe your experience it is in alignment with my understanding. It apparently doesn't de-motivate people from giving to charity and may motivate some. The kids don't end up poor, in fact not even close. And there is some prevention of the accumulation on great wealth in a few hands that may enable the development of an oligarchy.  I think its working like I
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