Topic: Is Abortion Right or Wrong (Read 1787 times)

catlick · « **on:** March 07, 2005, 07:21:35 AM »

Please view this before you vote

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/channel/inthewomb/gallery_04.html#pic

jesusboy · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2005, 03:38:37 PM »

CT this is a rather simple question to answer of course it is wrong no ifs ands or buts. The bible says murder is wrong the bible says that all life is special and valued (look in Issiah for that )

KalikaScott · « **Reply #2 on:** March 17, 2005, 02:26:48 PM »

What exactly was the point of this thread? Everyone knows you won't get much debate on the subject. The only reason for saying it's ok is pro-choice... and that's a selfish reason.

Malex · « **Reply #3 on:** March 17, 2005, 10:08:38 PM »

'Tis quite easy to see that--

1. Murder is wrong.

2. Biology textbooks say that "The human life begins when the sperm unites with the egg."

There ya go.

Harry Desert Rat · « **Reply #4 on:** March 18, 2005, 07:35:01 AM »

define 'right' and 'wrong'

Harry Desert Rat · « **Reply #5 on:** March 18, 2005, 08:32:51 AM »

lol jesusboy.

The bible says all life is special and valued but it also says suffer not the witch to live, stone folks until they die, go forth and kill all plus this god commits wholesale murder!

Funny stuff there.

Bible says nothing on the subject of abortion. Nothing, zero, zip, nada.

Only mention I find is where it says if you punch a pregnant bee-ach in the stomach and you kill the child, you hafta pay a fine. That's all, a fine. Doesn't sound like the bible has a problem with abortion at all if it merely assigns a fine to the perp. Kinda like it assigns a fine if you accidently kill a neighbors ox or goat.

Harry Desert Rat · « **Reply #6 on:** March 18, 2005, 08:37:17 AM »

K.S.

What of endangerment to the life of the mama? How about if the pregnancy was the result of a rape or incest? What if the child has what all the medical folks are telling you is horrible deformity, no brain (only the stem needed for it to exist, not 'live') where there is 0 % chance of living any kind of 'life', requiring 24 hour, extremely expensive care?

I'm sure if you thought about it a little longer you could come up with more reasons why it would be "ok".

KalikaScott · « **Reply #7 on:** March 18, 2005, 02:09:51 PM »

Quote from: Harry Desert Rat

K.S.

What of endangerment to the life of the mama? How about if the pregnancy was the result of a rape or incest? What if the child has what all the medical folks are telling you is horrible deformity, no brain (only the stem needed for it to exist, not 'live') where there is 0 % chance of living any kind of 'life', requiring 24 hour, extremely expensive care?

I'm sure if you thought about it a little longer you could come up with more reasons why it would be "ok".

I have thought about it. Truth is only in special cercumstances would I ever say abortion is ok. If the issue is if the parents want the child... there is always adoption.

Who are we to say the child will have a horrible life because they have a deformity or mental problems? That's just as savage as people killing an infant just because they have an extra finger.

jesusboy · « **Reply #8 on:** March 18, 2005, 04:05:01 PM »

Hey DR the bible says plenty on abortion
Murder is wrong
Every life has value .Issiah. For you formed me in my mothers womb for Iam fearfully and wonderfully made
Jesus said "let the little children come to me"

The stoning you mention were for extreme offenses of the law in those days adultury, witchcraft, idolworship and blasphemy.
The people in the bible knew what abortion was not by the same name many of the pagans and cannanites sacrificed children to gods some cultures burned children alive to there gods

The bible says plenty on abortion

Harry Desert Rat · « **Reply #9 on:** March 19, 2005, 12:04:11 AM »

I didnt say an 'extra finger' or a 'mental problem'. I used an extreme example. Based on the example I provided, would this abortion be 'wrong'?

Those examples JB gives say nothing of abortion. Every life has value? What of cancer? That is life. What of viruses? that is life. What of the ant mound you just poisoned? That was life. What of the bacteria you just killed with the hand sanitizer? That was life. To kill any of the 'life' mentioned is murder is it not? Or did you mean 'Human' life? If so then who are you to decide when human life begins? Is it at conception? Or at birth? How about at a certain month where the offspring can breath and survive independant of the mother outside the womb?

Potentially humans you maybe meant? The mass of cells that might actually form a human maybe you meant? Well, each sperm is a 'potential' human. Everytime you 'flog the bishop' are you not destroying 'potential' humans? In essence, committing abortions of potential humans?

The bible says NOTHING about abortion. The examples you give are nowhere even close. Yes, the characters in the bible knew what 'abortion' was. They assign a fine to the commiting of it. A fine!
Read some more of your bible and see some more examples of offenses that merit fines. 'Abortion' was on the same level as these. Tells me it was not considered murder at all.

Elisha · « **Reply #10 on:** March 19, 2005, 06:43:16 AM »

Quote

The bible says all life is special and valued but it also says suffer not the witch to live, stone folks until they die, go forth and kill all plus this god commits wholesale murder!

*Whispers to Harry*, "red herring".

I would take the time to respond to that, but I already have at antithetical's thread at the atheist section. However, even if granted that God commits murder and contradicts Himself, it has nothing to do with whether or not abortion is murder; hence the red herring.

Quote

What of endangerment to the life of the mama? How about if the pregnancy was the result of a rape or incest? What if the child has what all the medical folks are telling you is horrible deformity, no brain (only the stem needed for it to exist, not 'live') where there is 0 % chance of living any kind of 'life', requiring 24 hour, extremely expensive care?

When it comes down to permanent and/or life-threatening situations, I would defend the mother's right to decide what is best. However, this doesn't take away the fact that abortion is murder... this just means that it's ok to have an abortion in certain situations. It's parallel to self-defense. If you have no choice but to kill someone in self defense, then I would defend that persons right to defend themselves to such an extent if necessary. This doesn't cancel out the fact that this person did in fact kill somebody.

So, all in all, taking this route doesn't get you anywhere. Abortion still remains murder... demonstrably so.

Quote

who are you to decide when human life begins?

Well, for one, I'm a human and so know when my life began even though I can't remember when.

At THIS THREAD I defended the position of life beginning as soon as a zygote is formed. Such a thing is easily shown. A response is welcome.

Quote

Potentially humans you maybe meant? The mass of cells that might actually form a human maybe you meant? Well, each sperm is a 'potential' human. Everytime you 'flog the bishop' are you not destroying 'potential' humans? In essence, committing abortions of potential humans?

Each sperm cell isn't a potential human in any scientific sense - genetically speaking, morphologically speaking, or physiologically speaking. A sperm cell doesn't contain the genetic make-up of a fully grown human. However, a zygote does contain the genetic make-up of a fully grown human.

Quote

The bible says NOTHING about abortion

The Bible is very clear on murder.

catlick · « **Reply #11 on:** March 19, 2005, 07:57:52 AM »

"I didnt say an 'extra finger' or a 'mental problem'. I used an extreme example. Based on the example I provided, would this abortion be 'wrong'? "

"What of endangerment to the life of the mama?"

Yes it is acceptable to preform an opperation that may kill the child, but not as a direct abortion, as a premeditated attack on the child.

"How about if the pregnancy was the result of a rape or incest?"

Firstly I dont think this is extreme...

My friend was concieved via a "date rape" I dont call him less than human and I dont tell him his mothers would be right to kill him if she so desires, I would think the same if he were 100 years old or 1 day after conception old.

"What if the child has what all the medical folks are telling you is horrible deformity, no brain (only the stem needed for it to exist, not 'live') where there is 0 % chance of living any kind of 'life', requiring 24 hour, extremely expensive care?"

This is a extreme case and a hard one, for anyone, this I can only answer this according to the puropes of life, the reason god so choose this little fella to be so deformed.

I personally think abortion for this reason would be wrong too..

1st for exactly the same reason I believe euthinasia to be wrong.. all life is prescious.

2. I think it would be a very selfish act, this child has been created by god for a purpose, in his short life he could do so much more for the world than millions of others could do, by studying the babys development, growth and natural death doctors in the future maybe able to sustain the lives of simliar children for longer, help them develop better and eventually prevent the disformity all together, would it be right to destroy a life that is sent by god to help all mankind.... one must wonder how many people we have killed that would have came up with or helpped us find a cure for cancer or AIDS.

3. We must remember that severe cases of disformity account for less than 1% of all abortions, perhaps around 40 abortions worldwide are carried out for severe disformity

Mothers life... Yes (nessisary)

Rape/incest... No (unnessisary)

Severe disformity.... No (unnessisary)

The three causes together account for less than 3% of all abortions worldwide, keeping unrestricted abortion legal for these reasons is insane!

KalikaScott · « **Reply #12 on:** March 19, 2005, 02:34:06 PM »

Quote from: catlick

Mothers life... Yes (nessisary)

Rape/incest... No (unnessisary)

Severe disformity.... No (unnessisary)

The three causes together account for less than 3% of all abortions worldwide, keeping unrestricted abortion legal for these reasons is insane!

Considering the reason abortion was legalized in the first place... restricting it to only certain cases would not stop women from going in the back alley and getting an abortion and dying because the person that did it used nasty equipment. I may not like abortion but it doesn't stop the fact that legalizing it was the smart thing to do. (This topic reminds me of when they tried to outlaw alcohol... we all know that didn't go well.)

jesusboy · « **Reply #13 on:** March 19, 2005, 07:39:41 PM »

HDR you asked ealier who are we to judge when human life begins?
We are not the judge God is.
And I am talking about human life

In the case of Rape I would hope that even with that the mother would have the baby and at least gave it up for adoption
Danger to the Mom is a paticuly sticky issue I would hope that the mom would try to let the baby have a chance at life
No matter what though to abort a preganancy is to murder.
The reason I take such a hard line is because if you give the idea that its not any wiggle room you remove the cornerstone form the foundation. So in answer to your question the case may be extreme but it does not change what abortion is.
Hey Catlick I think your thread actually started rolling

Harry Desert Rat · « **Reply #14 on:** March 20, 2005, 01:13:18 AM »

Yay, everybody got to throw there 2 cents in and give their personal opinions on the subject of abortion.

So here is my 2 cents. It is the womans right to choose. (big surprise huh?)

And I never denied the bible mentions murder, it says nothing of abortion. If you wish to say they are they same thing, then fine, I disagree. Abortion is not murder.

If you are going to say murder is wrong because the bible says so, then defend if it is wrong then why does your God participate in such actions? If your God can do no wrong, then any of his actions must be 'not wrong' so murder is not wrong as your God committed many acts of.

Call it red herring if you wish elisha, it all ties in together.

Life;

What is life? Is only human life precious and valued or is all life? If something contains all the genetic material needed for a human is that a human?

Elisha · « **Reply #15 on:** March 20, 2005, 01:52:15 AM »

Harry, I'm not giving my opinion. As you can see from my other thread here on abortion I don't even use religion to consider abortion killing and/or ending the life of a human being. My argument is strictly science.

If you have a problem with my scientific definition, then criticize it directly and tell me what's wrong with it and why it isn't scientific. Don't dance around the subject. Perhaps you disagree due to the fact that I am not a qualified scientist?

Dr. Dianne Irving writes that a zygote is,

"an organism with 46 chromosomes, the number required of a member of the human species. This human being immediately produces specifically human proteins and enzymes, directs his/her own further growth and development as human, and is a new, genetically unique, newly existing, live human individual."

Dr Irving explains further,

"scientifically there is absolutely no question whatsoever that the immediate product of fertilization is a newly existing human being. A human zygote is a human being. It is not a "potential" or a "possible" human being. It's an actual human being

catlick · « **Reply #16 on:** March 20, 2005, 11:36:43 AM »

"Considering the reason abortion was legalized in the first place... restricting it to only certain cases would not stop women from going in the back alley and getting an abortion and dying because the person that did it used nasty equipment."

well first of Planned Parenthood, NARAL etc inflated figures sgnificantly to make issue of "unsafe" back ally abortions a influential side topic to the original Pro abortion issue of "who gets to decide" The estimate was well into thousands of deaths each year but the real figure according to former head of NARAL Dr Nathanson was closer to.

"The number of women dying from illegal abortions was around 200-250 annually"

2nd

Planned Parenthood Just prior to roe v wade regarding the saftey of the procedure said 98% of illigal abortions were preformed in doctors surgerys with safe clean steralised equipment.

So the reason abortion was legalised was because the Abortion industry lied to us!

"restricting it to only certain cases would not stop women from going in the back alley and getting an abortion and dying because the person that did it used nasty equipment."

The legality of abortion does not prevent death contary to the statistics of the CDC many more women die annually due to so called "safe legal abortions" than prior to R v W... did you know abortion clinics are the most under regulated businesses in the medical profession.

"I may not like abortion but it doesn't stop the fact that legalizing it was the smart thing to do."

of course it was,

Now instead of 100,000 women each year kiling their babies.... 1,200,000 women kill their children.

Now instead of 250 women dying goodness knows how many die now, due to cover ups

Who would you save 250 women or 1,100,000 babies?

"What is life? Is only human life precious and valued or is all life? "

All life is precious, but human life is above animal life to humans, since we are humans ourselves once we start saying only humans born or abled bodied or over IQ 125 are important we degrade these human beings to animal status... as what happened in Germany 1940, Britian 1967 & USA 1973

Abortion is Genocide, simple as that!

jesusboy · « **Reply #17 on:** March 21, 2005, 02:58:04 PM »

HDR do you mind proving where in the bible God committed murder

Author Topic: Is Abortion Right or Wrong (Read 1787 times)