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David Ben-Ariel

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Martin Luther King Day?
« on: January 18, 2008, 09:40:04 PM »

If we're to be judged by the content of our character rather than the color of our skin, why continue to demand quotas and curves and tolerate such racist organizations as the NAACP?
 
Martin Luther King Day?

David Ben-Ariel

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Re: Martin Luther King Day?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2008, 12:15:23 PM »

"I will say, then, that I AM NOT NOR HAVE EVER BEEN in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the black and white races---that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with White people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the White and black races which will ever FORBID the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together, there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the White race."
- Abraham Lincoln

Abraham Lincoln Was A White Supremacist

Anthony Horvath

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Re: Martin Luther King Day?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2008, 02:26:48 PM »

Whatta ya think, Copernicus?  Is your hero, Abe Lincoln, a white supremacist?
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David Ben-Ariel

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Re: Martin Luther King Day?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2008, 08:12:02 PM »

Whatta ya think, Copernicus?  Is your hero, Abe Lincoln, a white supremacist?

He certainly wasn't a black apologist, as there are far too many today.

Copernicus

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Re: Martin Luther King Day?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2008, 02:44:09 AM »

Whatta ya think, Copernicus?  Is your hero, Abe Lincoln, a white supremacist?

At what stage of his life?  As a child, I was a racist.  As an adolescent in the 1960s, I came to understand the nature of racism a lot better than most younger folks do today.  I can remember when apartheid was alive and well in the US, and not just in the South.  Teaching a Higher Education Opportunity Program class at Ohio State in the early 70s really changed me.  I read Malcom X's autobiography--a great consciousness raiser--and I learned a lot from the students.  It made me really begin to understand what it was like to see America through the eyes of Blacks.

Lincoln was an utterly amazing individual.  I can't think of many human beings that I don't admire more, and that isn't because he always believed the right things or did the right things.  It was because he transformed his party, his country, and himself in ways that are almost impossible to imagine today.

Lincoln was never as pro-slavery as, say, Mark Twain was, but he did believe that African Americans were inferior to whites.  As a politician in Illinois he did not believe that the Northern Black Laws (equivalent to the Southern Jim Crow laws in the 20th century) should be repealed.  He did not favor allowing them the vote, the right to hold public office, or other privileges that full citizens had.  He also felt that the best solution would be to send them back to Africa, to separate them from whites.  Most abolitionists saw him as horribly weak on the race issue, if not outright pro-slavery.  Nevertheless, his election triggered the Civil War, because he had sided too many times in public with the abolitionists, and his party was largely pro-abolition.

During his early administration, Lincoln was severely attacked for suggesting that slavery be ended and the slaves be sent back to Africa.  This did not go over well with free Blacks, and Frederick Douglass criticized him often.  However, that changed as the war progressed, and Lincoln was eventually convinced that his earlier views were wrong.  He wrote the Emancipation Proclamation well before he released it publicly, keeping it for an opportune moment.  He feared reaction in the slave states of Tennessee and Maryland, which were part of the Union.  However, he eventually became convinced that the only way to win the war was by recruiting Black soldiers into the army.  He did that, and they became the bulwark of the Northern armed forces.  Before Lincoln died, he had done much to reverse his earlier opinions about race, and Frederick Douglass became a good friend who proclaimed that Lincoln treated him more like an equal than any of the white abolitionists ever had.  That was Lincoln's great talent--his ability to unite, win enemies over, and change his thinking.  It was a very tragic day for the defeated South when he was assassinated, because he opposed the harsh penalties that were imposed after his death.  Lincoln would have reunited the country more quickly, and America would have been better for it.

Should we have an MLK holiday?  You bet.  Martin Luther King was one of the most brilliant, inspiring civil leaders of the 20th century.

And I should add that I am an Obama supporter today because I see something of Lincoln and Kennedy in his intellect and his demeanor.  I think that he has the best chance to truly unite the country and repair our damaged image around the world.  However, he is inexperienced and he has rough edges.  Nevertheless, he is currently my favorite Democratic candidate.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 03:02:52 AM by Copernicus »
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Dannyboy

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Re: Martin Luther King Day?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2008, 03:38:02 PM »

Hmm.

"...one of my sisters is married to a nice Mexican man, and one of my other sisters is married to a white man, and the other yet unmarried only likes black gentlemen (not the ghetto type). And I love all my sisters and their spouses, even though they know I believe IDEALLY we should all stay within our own race, our own God-given natural division." - David Ben-Ariel http://ezinearticles.com/?id=101706

That's boring!  Seriously, it's nice that you tolerate your sisters' strange preferences, but i wonder if you're aware that the concept of race is almost meaningless?  Sure we can all identify a white face from a black one (whether it is the 'ghetto type' or not), but genetic analysis shows that the difference between these archetypes is less than is expressed within the racial 'groups' they are said to embody.  For instance, although one might think that Black Africans would be closely related to Black Australian Aborigines, genetically they are one of the most dissimilar groups, Aboringines being most closely related to Asian genetic types.  The superficial differences we identify with the broad brush of 'Race' are almost certainly nothing more than the effect of comparatively recent sexual selection and local climate.

The joyful part of all this is that these trends can and probably will reverse themselves.  People are no longer confined to living in the latitudes which their ancestors were forced to adapt to, and therefore have a wider selection of potential mates.  'Mixed' is the fastest growing racial/demographic group.  If you happen to be lucky enough to live a hundred years, you will be likely to see the concept of Race leave the public consciousness, as the blurring of the boundaries which you currently lament increases exponentially to show those boundaries for what they really are - arbitrary and meaningless.

i hope, along with Copernicus, that America will soon have a president who clearly benefits from the diverse backgrounds which produced him.  Although the media prejudicially refer to Obama as 'black', he is of course mixed.  The assumption which underlies labelling him that way is in itself racist, but people seem not to notice this.

And on the subject David, can i bring to your attention that suggesting that Black gentlemen come in several types, one of which is the 'Ghetto type', could well be considered offensive, if not outright racist.  Rather like if i was to say that i am quite grateful that my Black African fiancee prefers white gentlemen, but not the pompous deluded type.

You could see how someone might take that wrong.

Dan

PS - hi Cop, how're you doing?  Remind me - do i owe you a drink or do you owe me one?  [biggrin  i know that Johnny owes me one.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 03:42:53 PM by Dannyboy »
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Copernicus

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Re: Martin Luther King Day?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2008, 06:57:06 PM »

i hope, along with Copernicus, that America will soon have a president who clearly benefits from the diverse backgrounds which produced him.  Although the media prejudicially refer to Obama as 'black', he is of course mixed.  The assumption which underlies labelling him that way is in itself racist, but people seem not to notice this.

Back in the days when the laws were helping to ensure our racial purity, Obama would have been called a mulatto.  (Mexicans and Indians of mixed descent were half-breeds.)  When I taught my HEOP class at Ohio State, we talked a lot about race, and my students gave me the formula for declaring whether one was officially white.  I don't recall it now, but one was declared officially black if there was more than 20% African blood in your ancestry or something to that effect. 

It had been more important in the 1960s, when public facilities were racially segregated.  When I was about 11 years old, a schoolmate got up to tell the class how he had spent his summer vacation.  He had traveled to Florida with his family.  Unfortunately, he was one of those caucasians who got a deep tan if he stayed in the sun too long, so he was kicked out of a public swimming pool.  Of course, his classmates, being wholesome white kids in America in the 1950s, immediately began calling him racial names and making fun of him.

Quote
PS - hi Cop, how're you doing?  Remind me - do i owe you a drink or do you owe me one?  [biggrin  i know that Johnny owes me one.

So, you are relying on me to do the bookkeeping?  Hmm.  I seem to recall that you owe me then next drink, and don't forget that 500 quid that you were going to pay me back.  I distinctly remember that it was not American money.  So don't try anything funny with exchange rates.  Tell you what.  Forget the beer.  Let's just say we're even on the drink side.  I'll just settle for the money.  [biggrin
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Dannyboy

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Re: Martin Luther King Day?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2008, 10:21:56 AM »

Interesting.  The assumption has always seemed to me to be that white = purity.  If you have one parent white and one parent black, then why is it any more sensible to say that a child is black than that it is white?  This cant be a purely colour-based distinction - after all, if i mix equal amounts of black and white paint, the result will not be black, and it would not make sense to call it black.  The nearest analogy for the assumption that i can think of is mixing clean and dirty water.  Obviously the result will be dirty water, and adding more clean water will not change that.  That's why i say it is a racist assumption to automatically label the offspring of one black parent and one white parent as 'black'.  We need new words.

The tanned child story is unfortunate.  Of course, this sort of thing happened much more recently in South Africa.  There was a boxer, i forget his name, who had his whole career taken away from him in the 80s because evidence emerged that he had a black grandfather or great-grandfather.

Hmm.  I seem to recall that you owe me then next drink, and don't forget that 500 quid that you were going to pay me back.  I distinctly remember that it was not American money.  So don't try anything funny with exchange rates.  Tell you what.  Forget the beer.  Let's just say we're even on the drink side.  I'll just settle for the money.  [biggrin

 :?  i have no memory of this.  Is it ok if i pay my bill by washing dishes?
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: Martin Luther King Day?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2008, 10:23:54 AM »

Quote
PS - hi Cop, how're you doing?  Remind me - do i owe you a drink or do you owe me one?  Very Happy  i know that Johnny owes me one.

Hey!  You just fly your butt over here and I'll set you up proper!
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Re: Martin Luther King Day?
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2008, 01:03:28 PM »

:?  i have no memory of this.  Is it ok if i pay my bill by washing dishes?

Dannyboy, you've got to do something about your drinking.  It must be the cause of your memory lapses.  I'll bet that you owe sntjohnny some money, too.  That is why he is trying to entice you to come to America.  Now that President Bush has worked his magic on our economy, we have a renewed fondness for people with foreign currency.   [howumakemefeel
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: Martin Luther King Day?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2008, 01:14:27 PM »

heh
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David Ben-Ariel

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Re: Martin Luther King Day?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2008, 10:07:32 PM »

Before Lincoln died, he had done much to reverse his earlier opinions about race, and Frederick Douglass became a good friend who proclaimed that Lincoln treated him more like an equal than any of the white abolitionists ever had.

How did he reverse his "earlier opinions"? You sure he wasn't just another politician speaking from both sides of his mouth? And just because he treated FD as an equal doesn't mean he felt he should be able to vote and such, eh? I'll treat anybody, on a personal level, as an equal - even though I have strong views about this or that.


Quote
I should add that I am an Obama supporter today because I see something of Lincoln and Kennedy in his intellect and his demeanor.  I think that he has the best chance to truly unite the country and repair our damaged image around the world.  However, he is inexperienced and he has rough edges.  Nevertheless, he is currently my favorite Democratic candidate.

Is this just misguided white guilt? I totally disagree he has a chance to "unite" the country any more than we've ever been united all our years. As Americans we agree, or supposedly do, as to disagree.

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Re: Martin Luther King Day?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2008, 10:10:03 PM »

Why does The Blade pander to blacks? Why have such an ignorant headline, "Toledo's blacks told to vote down .75% tax renewal" when The Blade certainly would never report Toledo's whites told to vote this or that way, as if we were a single mindless voting block?

The Blade panders to blacks

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Re: Martin Luther King Day?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2008, 11:36:22 PM »

How did he reverse his "earlier opinions"? You sure he wasn't just another politician speaking from both sides of his mouth? And just because he treated FD as an equal doesn't mean he felt he should be able to vote and such, eh? I'll treat anybody, on a personal level, as an equal - even though I have strong views about this or that.

David, I am relying on Dorothy Kearns Goodwin's biography Team of Rivals, which went into great detail on these subjects.  So I will recommend her book to you, if you are really interested.  It is a great read.  What Frederick Douglass felt about Lincoln can be determined from his own writings.  I don't think that Goodwin pulled any punches in that area.

Quote
I should add that I am an Obama supporter today because I see something of Lincoln and Kennedy in his intellect and his demeanor.  I think that he has the best chance to truly unite the country and repair our damaged image around the world.  However, he is inexperienced and he has rough edges.  Nevertheless, he is currently my favorite Democratic candidate.

Is this just misguided white guilt? I totally disagree he has a chance to "unite" the country any more than we've ever been united all our years. As Americans we agree, or supposedly do, as to disagree.

Why do you think that I would feel "white guilt"?  Obama is the first politician of color to come along in a long time that has attracted people on grounds that have exclusively to do with his ideas and his political positions.  If you think that race is the issue in his attraction, then that is your problem alone, my friend.  Given your statements in this thread and elsewhere, I believe that you have a serious problem with race.  You simply cannot put it aside.  People are the same, regardless of their skin pigmentation.  Obama happens to have had one white parent and one black parent, and that affects the color of his skin.  Nothing more.  Is that really of any importance to you?
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