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Author Topic: The objective trumps the subjective.  (Read 2052 times)

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Bdean

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« on: May 15, 2006, 07:48:45 PM »
In another thread, Deep Thought started by writing:
Quote
The objective trumps the subjective.


I debated on whether to post this in philosophy, atheisim, or Christianity.  After seconds of deep reflection, I opted for the less cluttered thread  ;-)

While I am interested in a general discussion about whether or not the statement is true, I am even more interested in these questions:

Is such a statement theisitic, atheistic, agnostic, or other at the foundation?  Is it possible for it to be more than one of these?

To what extent does the statement rely upon the belief in absolute Truth or absolute laws of logic?

If it doesn't reply upon either of these absolutes, is the statement itself subjective in nature?

To be fair to Deep Thought, it might be proper for me to point you to where you can see his original post in context and entirety: http://www.sntjohnny.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2026
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Deep Thought

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2006, 07:59:33 PM »
'Sfar as me can see, it's not so much anything (theist, atheist, etc.) as it is sheer common sense. Let's look at the dictionary, for example:

ob
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Bdean

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2006, 08:06:59 PM »
Very good. For the sake of this discussion, I am content with the definitions that you have placed in bold.  My questions still stand.  I am thinking in terms of presuppositions here.
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Deep Thought

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Re: The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2006, 04:29:55 AM »
Quote from: Bdean
Is such a statement theisitic, atheistic, agnostic, or other at the foundation?  Is it possible for it to be more than one of these?


Already answered. It's not specifically anything at its foundation other than common-sense prioritization of questions and answers for discerning truth. It can be said to be theist, atheist, agnostic, or anything depending upon who makes proper use of it or who rejects it/uses it improperly. (Not sure how that can be improperly used, exactly, but allowing for the possibility.)

Quote
To what extent does the statement rely upon the belief in absolute Truth or absolute laws of logic?


Well, it obviously assumes that what we experience with our senses is real. If our experiences were illusory, then the idea would fall apart completely. It's also only reliable if truth is absolute, i.e. two opposing truths can't be true at once, things can't be objectively true for one person/objectively false for another; and the absolute laws of logic are essential.

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If it doesn't reply upon either of these absolutes, is the statement itself subjective in nature?


Probably. If those two things aren't true, I see little reason to distinguish between "objective" and "subjective," in any case.
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Bdean

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2006, 09:22:51 AM »
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It's also only reliable if truth is absolute


Deep Thought - Stay with this and I will see you in church, synagogue, or mosque eventually. :)
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Deep Thought

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2006, 02:02:11 PM »
Quote from: Bdean
Quote
It's also only reliable if truth is absolute


Deep Thought - Stay with this and I will see you in church, synagogue, or mosque eventually. :)


Only if my investigations take me there. :-)

Even atheism believes in absolute truth--specifically, that one truth is absolute and that there can't be two or more opposing "truths" that are both true at once--it just doesn't claim to have it all written in some infallible, divine book.

You can believe in absolute truth and also believe that said truth is unknown or unknowable. And that's one of the many possibilities I'm allowing for.
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Deep Thought

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2006, 02:09:07 PM »
To make this plain:

"Truth" is defined as: "the real state of things; fact; reality; an accepted statement or proposition."  Some suggest that there is no true reality, only perceptions and opinions, while others argue that there must be some absolute basis.  This being said, we can say that there are two diametrically-opposed beliefs related to absolute truth:

Either:

1. There are no absolutes that define reality.  Everything is relative, and thus there is no actual reality.  There is ultimately no authority for deciding if an action is positive or negative; right or wrong. [This is the belief that there is no absolute truth, in other words.]

Or:

2. There are absolute realities, or standards, that define what is real and what is not.   Thus, actions can be deemed right or wrong based upon how they measure up against absolute standards. [And that would be the belief that there IS absolute truth.]

Source: http://www.absolutetruth.net/truth/ (brackets mine)

Whether the implications of God or whatnot brought up by the site are true or false doesn't matter: the above is correct enough without that fluff. Whether or not absolutes are defined by some kind of God(s) would depend upon whether or not some kind of God(s) exist, which is a separate question.
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Bdean

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2006, 05:35:34 PM »
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Even atheism believes in absolute truth--specifically, that one truth is absolute


Interesting.  Do any atheists want to chime in here?
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Copernicus

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2006, 05:50:18 PM »
My own view is that we can talk about reality but never really know it.  That is, I am fundamentally an agnostic on this subject.  We operate on the basis of what we believe to be true, and our beliefs about reality come in varying degrees of strength.  Some beliefs are bedrock certainties--convictions that seem unshakable, given many different sources of information.  Other beliefs are easily overturned in that we have very little information or conflicting information to corroborate them.  What we know about the world can only be learned through our bodily experiences, and those are in every sense of the word subjective.

Atheism, as I've said in the past, is not the absolute conviction that gods do not exist.  It is the belief that they do not exist.  Some atheists are firmer than others in that belief.  That is, they think that their opinion is sufficiently informed by different sources of evidence as to be unshakable.  Others would rather just say that theism has not met its burden of proof, and one can dismiss existence claims that are unsupported by reasonable evidence.
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Bdean

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2006, 05:56:54 PM »
Thanks Cop. And in my reading, most thoughtful contemporary atheists have a perspective similar to yours.  The one major exception is the Ayn Rand objectivism school of thought.
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Deep Thought

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2006, 07:54:27 PM »
Copernicus put that very well. Thanks, Cop! :-)
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Bdean

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2006, 08:05:11 PM »
Deep Thought - You do see the rather large difference between your position and Cop's, right?
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Deep Thought

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2006, 08:17:46 PM »
Quote from: Bdean
Deep Thought - You do see the rather large difference between your position and Cop's, right?


No, it seems compatible, even when I reread it now.

Perhaps you're seeing something I'm not, or perhaps you're misunderstanding something. What "large difference" do you see?
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Deep Thought

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2006, 06:13:06 AM »
Bdean, are you gonna just let this thread die? I'm still waiting for an answer, if you're willing to give it...
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Anthony Horvath

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2006, 07:20:36 AM »
I haven't seen him on for several days.  I'd just be patient.
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TheDoctor

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2006, 09:45:21 AM »
Quote from: sntjohnny
I haven't seen him on for several days.  I'd just be patient.


Of course you haven't seen him.  You've got those scales in front of your eyes.
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Ragnar

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2006, 02:50:57 PM »
another bump for bdean.
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Bdean

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2006, 09:22:17 PM »
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another bump for bdean.


Yep.  I chose to let this one go.  The more I read and reread through the posts, the more I became convinced that one or more of the following was true:

1) I was making much ado about nothing,
2) there wasn't as much of a difference as I had originally thought,
3) that I wasn't capable of clearly and convincingly making my point,
4) that I lacked the discipline and commitment to craft an explanation that warranted reading.  

Maybe I will have a rhetorical epiphany some day on a long run and revisit the thread.  Until then, I apologize for leaving you hanging.
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Anthony Horvath

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The objective trumps the subjective.
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2006, 10:50:04 PM »
#1-3 are false.

I can't speak to #4.
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