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Author Topic: This Shooter Should have been Stopped at the door  (Read 12902 times)

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End Bringer

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Re: This Shooter Should have been Stopped at the door
« Reply #120 on: March 09, 2008, 11:40:26 PM »

...the mere fact that the Gospels provide consistent accounts from 4 different sources.

Ok, i have a question:  Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples after he rose from the dead?  Oh, and also, who was Joseph's father?

At the same time? It is mentioned in both Mark, and Luke that Christ came to two disciples disguised on the way to Emmaus. But the whole group he appeared to in Jerusalem. John 20 gives an account that Thomas was singled out because Christ didn't appear to him until a week after he did the same for the others.

And if you are refering to an inconsistency with Joseph's genology that has been addressed as Mathew including the geneology of Joseph on his mother's side (evident by the fact that Mathew included women), while Luke was from the father's side. Having two parents kinda means having two geneologies.

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i'm sure.  None of that gives me any greater reason for believing in the existence of sorcery, nor why it would be a bad thing if it did exist.

That's beside the point. It's simply a case that it was more a willing rejection from even those who owned such books, rather than the forceful censership you were trying to imply.

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:smt021  And this is what drives me absolutely crazy.

You mean you weren't already?

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i'm not playing a game of 'gotcha', but this is annoying and lazy debating.  i could cut and paste unreferenced arguments from richarddawkins.net in response to anything that i dont feel like taking the time to answer, but it would make my presence here a bit superfluous.

We're back to this again? What did I say earlier? I fully admitted that most of the arguements I use to answer such problems can be found from other apologetic sources. Not the least bit has any barring on the arguement. Koukl's arguement can be traced back to John Warwick Montgomery's retroduction (which he points out) The Christian addressment with the problem of evil can be seen as a rehashing of St. Thomas Aquinas's arguement. Like I said before, I'm not going to pull a cutup and say "Ha Ha, your disagreeing with so-an-so" as if who the arguement is from has any barring on it. Your saying it has any barring on me being superfluous or whatever, is why I said this is an ad hominem from you the last time you brought it up.

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The point of this format is surely to put your arguments and your intellect against mine (or whoever), not to just recycle other peoples arguments.  i dont want to debate with Greg Koukl unless he shows up in person.  i wish that you would stop doing this.

As many of the arguements from atheists have been little more than repeating past arguements it may not be fair to even call it 'your' intellect. You're hardly the first guy to raise objections with the slaughter of the Canaanites, or think there's a contradiction between the OT version of God, and the NT.
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End Bringer

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Re: This Shooter Should have been Stopped at the door
« Reply #121 on: March 09, 2008, 11:50:49 PM »

Plagiarism isn't just annoying.  It is also illegal.  There is an explicit copyright on that website.

With reproduction permitted for non-commercial use only. There are some things money can't buy. For everything else...
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Dannyboy

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Re: This Shooter Should have been Stopped at the door
« Reply #122 on: March 11, 2008, 01:31:03 PM »

It is mentioned in both Mark, and Luke that Christ came to two disciples disguised on the way to Emmaus. But the whole group he appeared to in Jerusalem. John 20 gives an account that Thomas was singled out because Christ didn't appear to him until a week after he did the same for the others.

Actually the source of my confusion was that Matthew 28:16 says they met on a mountain in Galilee.

And if you are refering to an inconsistency with Joseph's genology that has been addressed as Mathew including the geneology of Joseph on his mother's side (evident by the fact that Mathew included women), while Luke was from the father's side. Having two parents kinda means having two geneologies.

Matthew (1:16) says "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.".  So Jacob was Joseph's mother, according to you?

It's simply a case that it was more a willing rejection from even those who owned such books, rather than the forceful censership you were trying to imply.

i did not imply forceful censorship in the case of Acts 19:19 (that came later).  What i said was "Thinking for yourself and educating yourself about other points of view is of course heavily frowned on by Christianity.  Paul's approval of the book burning in Acts 19:19 would be a case in point.".  Convert to Christianity and destroy any references to opposing points of view - that would be my reading of that passage.  Care to offer an alternative interpretation?

:smt021  "And this is what drives me absolutely crazy."

You mean you weren't already?


Depends which one of my psychiatrists you talk to.

We're back to this again? What did I say earlier? I fully admitted that most of the arguements I use to answer such problems can be found from other apologetic sources.

No one is saying that you can't be influenced by, or even flat out repeat other peoples' ideas, but if you do not reference things that you have copied then you are dishonestly passing off their words as your own.

Of course we all incorporate other peoples' arguments into our own - nothing any of us are saying here is more than 10% original thinking, and that has (as you say) no bearing on the quality or otherwise of the argument being presented.  i'm not trying to dismiss the arguments without addressing them, i am objecting to the fact that you had not only cut and pasted them with virtually no input of your own (which is lazy) but also declined to make it clear that you were copying someone elses' words (which is dishonest).

You're hardly the first guy to raise objections with the slaughter of the Canaanites, or think there's a contradiction between the OT version of God, and the NT.

Nor will i be the last, but if any of them quote my elegant and well-constructed version of the argument without giving me the due credit for writing it i'll slap them purple.
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If God has a problem with the way i live my life then let him tell me, not you.

"Denying your own experience of reality is never a good step, no matter how many are arrayed against you" - Spero by AR Horvath

End Bringer

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Re: This Shooter Should have been Stopped at the door
« Reply #123 on: March 11, 2008, 03:43:05 PM »

Actually the source of my confusion was that Matthew 28:16 says they met on a mountain in Galilee.

Yes. That was a later appearance than the Jerusalem one. Specifically after Christ's ressurection He appeared about 11 times. But you asked about the very first one to the disciples as a group. And they weren't even the first ones He appeared to. Galilee is noted as the place Christ appeared after they got over their initial doubt of the women's testimony, with 500 people following along as stated in 1 Cor. 15:6.

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Matthew (1:16) says "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.".  So Jacob was Joseph's mother, according to you?

Whoops. Seems I mixed up who listed what. My mistake for not having my Bible with me when I posted. All I can initially remember is that Matthew listed women and was fairly unorthadox with how he recorded Christ's genealogy.

I found a more thorough explanation that might clear up any confusion for you and actually addresses more than just the "Joseph's father" issue: http://www.triumphpro.com/genealogy_of_christ.htm

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i did not imply forceful censorship in the case of Acts 19:19 (that came later).  What i said was "Thinking for yourself and educating yourself about other points of view is of course heavily frowned on by Christianity.  Paul's approval of the book burning in Acts 19:19 would be a case in point.".  Convert to Christianity and destroy any references to opposing points of view - that would be my reading of that passage.  Care to offer an alternative interpretation?

Not just any references as it clearly stated it was those who were converted who destroyed their own books and thus the act was limited to those who were converted.  Basicly it's people doing what they wanted with their own property as that property encouraged acts and behavior that they chose to reject. The verse says "And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all." The very fact that it says a 'number of those' rather than 'everyone' shows your generalization to be outright pathetic.

I don't even know where you get 'Paul's approval' from, as the context puts that verse as simply reporting events, rather than any pat on the head or encouragement from Paul.

Like I said earlier, your grossly exagerated misinterpretation of this, while ignoring the plethora of verses where Paul encourages to test Scripture, and his free admittance that if Christianity is wrong then Christians are the most pathetic people on Earth (showing that self-criticism was in fact encouraged rather than discouraged), shows that objectivity is truly lacking in your arguements.

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Nor will i be the last, but if any of them quote my elegant and well-constructed version of the argument without giving me the due credit for writing it i'll slap them purple.

Imitation is the best form of flattery. But as I've included links into the threads (the only issue brought up that concerns me is getting sntjohnny into any kind of trouble over my actions) this issue is null and void.
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Dannyboy

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Re: This Shooter Should have been Stopped at the door
« Reply #124 on: March 13, 2008, 01:06:25 PM »

End Bringer,

"Actually the source of my confusion was that Matthew 28:16 says they met on a mountain in Galilee."

That was a later appearance than the Jerusalem one. Specifically after Christ's ressurection He appeared about 11 times. But you asked about the very first one to the disciples as a group. And they weren't even the first ones He appeared to. Galilee is noted as the place Christ appeared after they got over their initial doubt of the women's testimony, with 500 people following along as stated in 1 Cor. 15:6.


That is not what it says in Matthew.  Specifically, it says that the two Marys went to the sepulchre, saw an angel and then saw Jesus (which disagrees, incidentally, with 1 Corinthians, which names 'Cephas' as the first to see Jesus resurrected and doesn't even mention Mary), who told them to tell the disciples to go to Galilee, they ran to the disciples and told them this [small diversion about the story of the body being stolen] and then the disciples went to Galilee and met jesus.  "And worshipped him, but some doubted".

Now, let's try not to get too bogged down with assumptions - what i hope we can agree on is that the gospels say different things about who saw Jesus resurrected.  You assume that these are different elements of a seamless dialogue, and i assume that these are contradictions.  Whatever, the fact of the matter is that the gospels say different things.

I found a more thorough explanation that might clear up any confusion for you and actually addresses more than just the "Joseph's father" issue: http://www.triumphpro.com/genealogy_of_christ.htm

Thank you for the link, i found it an interesting read.  The most illuminating sentence for me was this one:

"Many attempts have been made to explain this difference, without destroying the historical integrity of the records."

This sets the tone for the rest of the article.  Essentially this is a classic piece of ad hoc reasoning - it offers three contradictory explanations for the different genealogies of Jesus in the NT, making it quite clear that the only reason for believing any of them to be true is that they resolve the apparent contradiction!  If there was any independently compelling reason to believe that Heli was in fact the father of Mary, not Joseph, or that Heli was the half-brother of Jacob who died childless, then that would be advanced as the single convincing explanation of this problem.

This is very unconvincing to someone who doesn't already believe in the inerrancy of the bible.

I don't even know where you get 'Paul's approval' from, as the context puts that verse as simply reporting events, rather than any pat on the head or encouragement from Paul.

The following verse - "So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed" gives me the clue.

Like I said earlier, your grossly exagerated misinterpretation of this, while ignoring the plethora of verses where Paul encourages to test Scripture, and his free admittance that if Christianity is wrong then Christians are the most pathetic people on Earth (showing that self-criticism was in fact encouraged rather than discouraged), shows that objectivity is truly lacking in your arguements.

Hmm, i think that "And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" [2 Corinthians] would contradict that suggestion.

Why are you even talking to me?  You know what you should be doing:

this  [lethimwhoiswithoutsin  or this  [scorched
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 01:08:54 PM by Dannyboy »
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If God has a problem with the way i live my life then let him tell me, not you.

"Denying your own experience of reality is never a good step, no matter how many are arrayed against you" - Spero by AR Horvath

End Bringer

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Re: This Shooter Should have been Stopped at the door
« Reply #125 on: March 13, 2008, 02:42:49 PM »

Now, let's try not to get too bogged down with assumptions - what i hope we can agree on is that the gospels say different things about who saw Jesus resurrected.  You assume that these are different elements of a seamless dialogue, and i assume that these are contradictions.  Whatever, the fact of the matter is that the gospels say different things.

Obviously they say different things. They were written by 4 different people who worked on each work seperately. In a courtroom, time is spent reconstructiong events by taking different eyewitness accounts. If all witnesses stories were virtually identical any lawyer with half a brain would point out such an act as that of collusion or conspiracy. Such passages are actually beneficial to the Bible's validity.

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This sets the tone for the rest of the article.  Essentially this is a classic piece of ad hoc reasoning - it offers three contradictory explanations for the different genealogies of Jesus in the NT, making it quite clear that the only reason for believing any of them to be true is that they resolve the apparent contradiction!  If there was any independently compelling reason to believe that Heli was in fact the father of Mary, not Joseph, or that Heli was the half-brother of Jacob who died childless, then that would be advanced as the single convincing explanation of this problem.

It offers 4 reasonable alternative explanations for what is only appears to be a contradiction. SHowing that such people who try to point it out to descredit the Bible are truly graspping. Heaven forbid there can be multiple solutions to a problem.

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This is very unconvincing to someone who doesn't already believe in the inerrancy of the bible.

Cart before the horse. But anyway it only demostrates that the appearance of contradictions is just that: appearance. I know, it's a very Dawkin-esque arguement, but hey, if he can use it to justify his arguements....

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The following verse - "So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed" gives me the clue.

Yes. And that still falls within a "reporting events" context, though any Christian would obviously approve of the word of God prevailing as any atheist would approve of his message being widely accepted.

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Hmm, i think that "And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" [2 Corinthians] would contradict that suggestion.

You are really reaching as that is in the same context of "in the world, but not of it". Basicly outlining that Christians have no buisness living like infedals, and participating in the same sinful activites they do as a form of pagan worship.

And I am doing those things to you DB. I've been doing those things to you and your arguements in this entire thread.  :P
« Last Edit: March 13, 2008, 03:46:08 PM by End Bringer »
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