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Cook

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« on: November 19, 2005, 06:57:09 PM »

There are those who like to claim that Christianity got it's story from pagan religions. They often site garbage like you will see below:
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Anthony Horvath

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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2005, 07:17:53 PM »

I eagerly look forward to you defending this.  I hear such things all the time and they are never more substantiated then simply 'some scholars think' or worse, mere assertion without any attempt to show ACTUAL borrowing.  

A case in point- Mithra.  You often hear that Mithra had similar characteristics to the Christ story, but never the details about how the characteristics of the Mithra story are established in the first place, and then further no attempt is made to show that the early Christians actually borrowed- its cast as nothing more than a 'possibility' and that is supposed to pass as historical fact.

Indeed, at that level of argumentation, it could be argued that Mithra (for example) borrowed from the Christians.  

I got your back on this one, Cook.  Let's see who ponies up.
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nojc4me

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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2005, 08:36:14 PM »

Cook said:

Heracles was not born of a virgin.

That's not actually factual. What I said, I believe, was that Hercules was the son of a virgin. Any good book on Greek mythology would show the facts are as I called them. Here's what a Greek man wrote on his web site:
http://www.allaboutturkey.com/sozlukmit1.htm
Alcmene
In Greek mythology, Alcmene is the virgin goddess of midwinter, midwinter's moon, the new year, stateliness, beauty and wisdom.
Alcmene was the wife of Amphitryon. Zeus visited Alcmene in the form of her husband, and the child of their union was the Greek hero Heracles.
Here's what a christian (if the URL is any indication) wrote:
http://www.christslove.com/Hercules/Hercules.htm
Hercules: the original son of GOD
Hercules was known to all the peoples of the ancient world as the Son of God. He fought against injustice all his life and protected the downtrodden and the poor.
According to Greek legend he was born of God and an earthly virgin mother from an act of sex that lasted three days. He was known as the Healer and raised two people from the dead in his lifetime, one man and
one woman.

If you can find a story that is an exact match to Christianity - bring it to the table.

It is not necessary for me to produce any such thing. I don't recall ever saying that christianity is a carbon copy of any one other and older pagan religion.
All I have to do is show how certain points of christianity correspond to points of other pagan religions.
That's easy to do.
http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/jesus_similar.html
Mithras was originally Persian.
   The Mithras cult arose c. 600 BCE, before the rise of Rome.
  When the Christ myth was new Mithras and Mithraism were already ancient. Worshiped for centuries as God's Messenger of Truth, Mithras was long revered by the Persians (Zoroastrianism) and the Indians (see the Vedic literature ).
  Christian apologist Justin Martyr (1 Apologia, 66, 4) denounces the devil for having sent a God so similar to Jesus - yet preceding him.
   Every year in Rome, in the middle of winter, the Son of God was born once more, putting an end to darkness. Every year at first minute of December 25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense. Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother. God, in the form of light, entered a virgin, Anahita.
     In Armenian tradition, Mithras was believed to shut himself up in a cave from which he emerged once a year, born anew.
The Persians introduced initiates to the mysteries in natural caves, according to Porphyry, the third century neoplatonic philosopher. These cave temples were created in the image of the World Cave that Mithras had created, according to the Persian creation myth. [Source available on site]
   With twelve disciples, Mithras travelled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men.
          At about age 30 he began his ministry, offering salvation based on faith, compassion, knowledge and valour.
          He had 12 companions or disciples and was considered a great travelling teacher and master.
     Mithras performed miracles.
  The god remained celibate throughout his life, and valued self-control, renunciation and resistance to sensuality among his worshippers. Mithras represented a system of ethics in which brotherhood was encouraged in order to unify against the forces of evil."   [Source available on site]
   Mithras was known as: Saviour; Son of God; Redeemer; Lamb of God; the Way, the Truth and the Light; Messiah; Light of the World.
          He also was called the Good Shepherd and was identified with both the lion and the lamb.
  Mithras was known as the God of Truth, and Lord of Heavenly Light, and said to have stated 'I am a star which goes with thee and shines out
of the depths'. [Source available on site]
   Mithras was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead - an event celebrated yearly (spring equinox) with much rejoicing.
  After the earthly mission of this god had been accomplished, he took part in a Last Supper with his companions before ascending to heaven, to forever protect the faithful from above. [Source available on site]
  Mithras of Persia atoned for mankind, and prepared for the salvation of mankind through slaying the primaeval bull - the first sacrifice ... his celebrations at the spring and autumn equinoxes were associated with crucifixion on a tree. These were the Persian New Year festivities described in the scriptural book of Esther, and involved the crucifixion of the old years, considered wicked, so that a new and uncorrupted year could take its place. This was seen as an annual rehearsal of the eschaton when the wicked world is finally replaced by the purity of the original creation of Ahuramazda. Christian writers speak of Mithras being slain, and yet do not say how. It has been suppressed ..."   [Source available on site]
   Mithras was one part of a holy trinity.
  The worshippers of Mithras held strong beliefs in a celestial heaven and an infernal hell. They believed that the benevolent powers of the god would sympathize with their suffering and grant them the final justice of immortality and eternal salvation in the world to come. They looked forward to a final day of Judgment in which the dead would resurrect, and to a final conflict that would destroy the existing order of all things to bring about the triumph of light over darkness.   [Source available on site]
  The followers of Mithras kept the Sabbath holy, eating sacramental meals in remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.
  He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood will not be made one with me or I with him, the same shall not know salvation.
Persian Mithraic text
     Baptism in the blood of the bull (taurobolum) - early baptism 'washed in the blood of the Lamb' - late baptism by water.
Mithraic baptism was recorded by the early Christian author Tertullian : "Mithra there brings in the symbol of a resurrection." Also, Tertullian: "The Devil, whose business is to pervert the truth, mimics the exact circumstances of the divine sacraments in the mysteries of idols. He himself baptizes some, that is to say, his believers and followers; he promises forgiveness of sins in the sacred fount, and thus initiates them into the religion of Mithra."   [Source available on site]
Mithraic rituals brought about the transformation and salvation of his adherents - an ascent of the soul of the adherent into the realm of the divine. From the wall of a Mithraic temple in Rome: 'And thou hast saved us by shedding the eternal blood.'
          Like today's clergy, Mithrasian priests acknowledged a 'Last Supper' and performed baptisms first with water and then 'with the spirit'.
  According to D Jason Cooper, (Mithras: Mysteries and Initiation Rediscovered , Red Wheel, 1996),  the Mithrasians had a 'Last Supper' which, like the modern Communion or Eucharist, included wine as a symbol of sacrificial blood.
  "Bread in wafers, or small loaves marked with a cross, was used to symbolise flesh," he writes.
  "As to the future, the initiate into Mithraism was guaranteed a righteous judgment and a happy immortality. He felt secure about the judgment, for Mithra, the guardian of truth, would preside at the great assize which determined his eternal destiny.
According to the picture suggested by the Emperor Julian, Mithra was also the guide who assisted the soul on its heavenly journey and, finally, like a fond father, welcomed the soul to its heavenly home."   [Source available on site]

  "... reborn and created for delights," and "you have saved us by the shedding of eternal blood."
 Inscriptions in a Mithraeum (temple of Mithras) in Rome
 
http://www.vetssweatshop.net/dogma.htm

Some Similarities Between Mithraism and Christianity are:
Virgin birth
Twelve followers
Killing and resurrection
Miracles
Birthdate on December 25
Morality
Mankind's savior
Known as the Light of the world
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Suggested Reading list:
"You Take jesus, I'll Take God" - Sam Levine
"The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" - Robert Heinlein
"Hope" - Aaron Zelman & L. Neil Smith
"The Probability Broach" - L. Neil Smith
"Wizard's First Rule" - Terry Goodkind (Check out the rest of the series, too.)
"The Constitution of the United States" - input from various American Statesmen (Read that as "Old, wealthy white men, now dead, who were often seen to be wearing wigs and hose in public.")

Zagzagel

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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2005, 08:51:12 PM »

Oh, boy...oh, boy.  Nojc and I discussed this issue about Mithra in another thread...

This should be quite interesting.
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Cook

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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2005, 12:08:18 PM »

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Zagzagel

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« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2005, 08:17:33 PM »

But nojc already confessed to me, in that other thread, under the title "various" that there was nothing provable (in so many words) that early christianity was ever related to the MITHRA teachings, in THAT specific era.  But in our era, it has become a predominate attack.  But the claim was that they understood these things back then better than us.  LOL.

This lead me to highly question nojc's claim on this MITHRA accusation..and to properly reject it.  But here is his chance again.  Round two?

I am one for giving two chances...even three...even four... [biggrin

But I already percieve that nojc is the same way!!! [smile
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Anthony Horvath

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« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2005, 08:42:27 PM »

I think in regards to Mithra, we can just evaluate each alleged correspondence.  I mean, let's make sure we've got what is alleged about Mithra right before we start down the difficult path of linking it to the early Christians.

So for example, I submit to nojc this allegation:

"He had 12 companions or disciples and was considered a great travelling teacher and master."

Can you provide sources to verify this?  I don't mean modern windbags.  I mean, archeological or ancient text?
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Cook

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« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2005, 06:03:31 PM »

Sntjohnny,

You said:

Quote
I think in regards to Mithra, we can just evaluate each alleged correspondence. I mean, let's make sure we've got what is alleged about Mithra right before we start down the difficult path of linking it to the early Christians.


Wonderful. I was wanting to say this but couldn't quite find the right tone. You said it perfectly.

I will however still post something I mentioned about proving the link between the Persian Mithra and the Roman Mithras.  It is by no means easily proven.

My biggest problem is that I LOVE ancient cultures like the Greeks and the Egyptians. And sometimes reading too much of it, is not the best thing for my siritual life. Ya know?  I LOVE it and have a hard time putting it down once I pick it up. Kind of like a kid with a video game.   [smile


cook
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Anthony Horvath

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« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2005, 10:19:09 PM »

I hear ya, Cook.

You know, I was reading through some Roman history today and came across a reference to Mithra for the first time.  I mean, I've been reading Roman histories for a long time and never noticed one.

With such a glut of evidence available, I can't wait to see nojc make his case.  ;)
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dark territory

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« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2005, 10:57:56 PM »

I hear that cook. Have you read The Jesus puzzle yet? Talk about far out left field. The auther is a student and PHD in mythology and no education in theology. The GAUL!
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nojc4me

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« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2005, 07:48:17 PM »

I had a beautiful post all worded out two nights ago, and the gorram 'puter crashed! I'll try again, soon, b'li neder.
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Suggested Reading list:
"You Take jesus, I'll Take God" - Sam Levine
"The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" - Robert Heinlein
"Hope" - Aaron Zelman & L. Neil Smith
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"Wizard's First Rule" - Terry Goodkind (Check out the rest of the series, too.)
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Cook

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« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2005, 03:23:58 PM »

Nojc,

Before I get into a discussion about how Mithraism is, or is not,  similar to christianity I need to be convinced that these two religions are one and the same. So far I am not satisfied that the link between the Persian Mithra and the Roman Mithras has been proven. Below are my reasons.  

Mithraeum is a place of worship for the followers of the Mystery Religion of Mithraism They were often constructed underground or in a cave to resemble the cave where mithras slayed the sacred bull.

Mithraeum are found all over Rome. In Roman Mithraic religion we find the bull-slaying scene located in every mithraeum. If the Mithras of the Roman religion was actually the Iranian god Mithra, we should expect to find in Iranian mythology a story in which Mithra kills a bull.

But according to Mithraic scholar David Ulansey, "no such Iranian myth exists," he says of this that "in no known Iranain text does Mithra have anything to do with killing a bull."  

We do not find it even in one single instance. In other words there are no direct parallels in ancient Iran to the iconography which is the primary fact of the Roman Mithraic cult.

No only is the bull symbolism missing from the Persian Mithra but also there is no record of any Mithraeum (underground temples) in Persia.

It is very likely that the Roman Mithra shares only the name of the Persian diety and nothing else.

As far as other Mithras - here is more info to question the link between the old religious mentions of a Mitra and the Roman Mithras:

In the Vedic hymns, Mitra is always invoked together with Varuna so that the two are combined as 'Mitravaruna': Varuna is lord of the cosmic rhythm of the celestial spheres, while Mitra brings forth the light at dawn, which was covered by Varuna.

Above we have proof that Mitra was not worshipped as a sole deity. Nor was he celibate but was paired with a female.

In the 5th century BCE, the Greek historian Herodotus mentioned:
The customs which I know the Persians to observe are the following: they have no images of the gods, no temples nor altars, and consider the use of them a sign of folly. This comes, I think, from their not believing the gods to have the same nature with men, as the Greeks imagine. Their wont, however, is to ascend the summits of the loftiest mountains, and there to offer sacrifice to Jupiter, which is the name they give to the whole circuit of the firmament. They likewise offer to the sun and moon, to the earth, to fire, to water, and to the winds. These are the only gods whose worship has come down to them from ancient times. At a later period they began the worship of Urania, which they borrowed from the Arabians and Assyrians. Mylitta is the name by which the Assyrians know this goddess, whom the Arabians call Alitta, and the Persians Mitra.

Above we have mention of the Persian Mitra as a GODDESS. The claim is that the Roman Mithras is Male.  It appears there is a bit of confusion here. In light of this you can't claim with certainty that the Persian Mitra is the Roman Mithras.

In fact the earliest writer to mention the Roman Mithras is Pluarch about 67 B.C. and he claims it came from Cicilian pirates, no mention of the Persian connection.

In addition to the above facts the Persian god/goddess was not part of a secret society. The Roman mithras was worshipped by men only as part of a secret society.

This is enough for now.



cook





[/i]
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dark territory

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« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2005, 06:44:48 PM »

Lol I think the proper spelling is GAWL~! well doesnt matter as I dont spell check posts or chat.

Dude if people feel they want to call something a myth with little or no knowledge, it's their issue, not mine. My issue is to learn who these people are so I can be sure I double check if it concerns me.
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Cook

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« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2005, 07:05:42 PM »

sntjohnny,
Quote
With such a glut of evidence available, I can't wait to see nojc make his case.


I agree. This should be fun. I only hope that we can get real discussion and not a bombardment of references to other websites.  [biggrin



dark territory
Quote
Have you read The Jesus puzzle yet?


No. But I'm sure it is the usual garb. Yes? Anything original?

cook
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dark territory

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« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2005, 09:39:56 PM »

Well I guess in general yeah, but the auther goes about his point more intensly. He begins by up rooting the four pillars. (the 4 gospels) and then follows along the line of the apostle Paul creating Christianity. So in the end the auther has shown how the Christ mtyh could be observed as possible. It's a, how to look at Christianity another way if it wer'nt founded in truth. The way I learned to go about looking at it after I read it, was tactfuly.

The Jesus puzzle trys to leave Christianty in rubble. This happens when he tactfully goes about knocking down the 4 pillars of the testimony of Christ. It's a worth while read if you have the time, but it's long (not like a novel long, it just seemed to be a long read) and very sticky in places.
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Cook

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« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2005, 09:31:38 AM »

dark territory,

I might read it - if I can get it from the library. I certainly will not pay for it.  

Thanks,
cook
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dark territory

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« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2005, 03:47:02 AM »

http://www.humanists.net/jesuspuzzle/home.htm

start here, [headbanger   ](*,) have fun.

I'm curious if you see what I mean if/when you read it.
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