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ULTRON

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Ancient snake with legs
« on: April 12, 2008, 11:43:58 AM »

See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7339508.stm

I think this has something to do with the serpent mentioned in the Bible (Genesis 3:14) when God told the serpent that its legs would be taken away.

ULTRON
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stathei

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2008, 11:48:49 AM »

Definitely. It's certainly not evidence of evolution.  :roll:
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ULTRON

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2008, 12:03:51 PM »

I would love to ask this question: Is a land-dwelling organism "fittest" with legs? Or without legs?

ULTRON

Definitely. It's certainly not evidence of evolution.  :roll:
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stathei

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2008, 03:46:20 PM »

Perhaps, if you actually read the article you quoted, you would learn something.

Snakes are clearly very "fit" for their surroundings. They are a lot "fitter" than the crap animal your God created in his image. How long would you survive in snake territory? You wouldn't have a prayer, if you'll forgive the expression.
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Copernicus

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2008, 11:42:00 PM »

I would love to ask this question: Is a land-dwelling organism "fittest" with legs? Or without legs?

Not if it finds survival easier by burrowing, and the need for legs becomes less important than other methods of moving around in tight spaces.  Environment is the sole arbiter of what counts as "fitness".  But surely you understand how and why natural selection works, don't you?  What this fossil demonstrates is a transition between reptiles with legs and snakes.  Evolution predicts that we will find such fossils, and this is but one of many such transitions that we have seen recorded in the fossil record.  Despite what the Bible says, most Christians have come to accept that evolution trumps the older religious idea of spontaneous generation.
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End Bringer

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2008, 03:38:07 PM »

What this fossil demonstrates is a transition between reptiles with legs and snakes.  Evolution predicts that we will find such fossils, and this is but one of many such transitions that we have seen recorded in the fossil record.  Despite what the Bible says, most Christians have come to accept that evolution trumps the older religious idea of spontaneous generation.

Unfortunately scientist are unable to agree with what it's actually being transitioned from. Some claim it developed from land based while others believe snakes transitioned from a sea based reptile. Showing how much is based on interpretation, and the fact that people are so focused on a snake's legs they miss the uniqueness of their backbone.

Sadly for evolutionists, creationists have no trouble with excepting a legless animal due to natural selection. As it is evidence of losing features rather than the addition of new ones that macroevolution requires. Such degeneration fits very nicely in a creationist model.
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Copernicus

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2008, 04:31:12 PM »

Sadly for evolutionists, creationists have no trouble with excepting a legless animal due to natural selection. As it is evidence of losing features rather than the addition of new ones that macroevolution requires. Such degeneration fits very nicely in a creationist model.

It is true that evolutionists have proposed these two competing theories for the evolution of snake, but the recent discovery of this fossil makes the land-based hypothesis more plausible than the sea-based one.  Tragically for creationists, their model predicts that we should not see much evidence at all for transitional fossils of this sort, since all macroevolution is supposed to have taken place by miraculous spontaneous generation.  If, indeed, God simply wishes new species into existence, then he seems to have followed a strange convention--that of creating the fossil record to make it appear as if they had evolved.  However, their theory can be rescued under the equally plausible hypothesis that God has a wicked sense of humor.   [biggrin
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stathei

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2008, 08:06:21 PM »

God certainly does have a great sense of humor - when he's not being wrathful, vengeful or just generally in a huff, that is.

Just wanted to give the creationists' definition of macroevolution and microevolution for those who are watching (yes, both of you):

MICROEVOLUTION: The undeniable part of evolution. I have to admit this so I don't look like a freak. I can pretend it's in the Bible.
MACROEVOLUTION: The unobservable part of evolution. Have to deny this because it proves that I am a freak. Must change definition to microevolution as necessary when I am reminded that it has been observed.

There is, of course, no difference between the two.
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End Bringer

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2008, 01:40:39 AM »

Tragically for creationists, their model predicts that we should not see much evidence at all for transitional fossils of this sort, since all macroevolution is supposed to have taken place by miraculous spontaneous generation.

Transitioned from what? As we've covered even those who unquestionally believe in evolution don't agree. Frankly it's the fact that so many links are missing that makes some evolutionists admit that it's hard to imagine a chain at all. Evolution predicts innumerable transitional fossils, but all they have ever come up with are a handful of debatable ones. I believe Archaeopteryx is a favorite.

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If, indeed, God simply wishes new species into existence, then he seems to have followed a strange convention--that of creating the fossil record to make it appear as if they had evolved.  However, their theory can be rescued under the equally plausible hypothesis that God has a wicked sense of humor.   [biggrin

That's where you tragically fail, as one must first assume evolution to be true for fossil evidence to prove it. This is what makes fossil records unable to prove evolution even in principle as the whole matter becomes question begging.

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MICROEVOLUTION: The undeniable part of evolution. I have to admit this so I don't look like a freak. I can pretend it's in the Bible.

Actually it is in an explicit and implicit sense. "Multiplying after kind" is mentioned in the Bible, but for a more implicit sense one can observe human beings being said to live for 900 years or so, with today we're barely able to make it to 120. Seems like a nonissue that a creationist need not be concerned or embarrased about.

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MACROEVOLUTION: The unobservable part of evolution. Have to deny this because it proves that I am a freak. Must change definition to microevolution as necessary when I am reminded that it has been observed.

Sadly the observation of gaining (that would be the difference between the two if you ever bothered to look beyond your own dogmatism) genetic info and features hasn't been observed at all. It's a constant fact that made evolutionist switch tactics when refering to how evolution always traveled in an upward manner (with humans being the pinnacle). It's either copy what we have, or lose it which is what one would expect from a creationist model. Instead of observed what we get is interpreted. And when one already accepts evolution as fact the interpretation becomes question begging.
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Copernicus

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2008, 07:14:28 AM »

Transitioned from what? As we've covered even those who unquestionally believe in evolution don't agree. Frankly it's the fact that so many links are missing that makes some evolutionists admit that it's hard to imagine a chain at all. Evolution predicts innumerable transitional fossils, but all they have ever come up with are a handful of debatable ones. I believe Archaeopteryx is a favorite.

Evolution predicts that we will find transitional fossils, not that we will find complete records of transitional fossils.  Most animals that lived in the past did not leave fossil remains, so it is hardly surprising that there are gaps in the record.  By now, though, what we find between the gaps is enough to prove what Darwin's theory predicted we would find.  What we do not find is fossil evidence of miraculous spontaneous generations that had no connection to any of the major phyla, nor do find find evidence to contradict the timelines that scientists have established for evolution.  For example, no human fossils are found in strata with dinosaur fossils, which indicates that hominids/humans have only relatively recently appeared on Earth.

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If, indeed, God simply wishes new species into existence, then he seems to have followed a strange convention--that of creating the fossil record to make it appear as if they had evolved.  However, their theory can be rescued under the equally plausible hypothesis that God has a wicked sense of humor.   [biggrin


That's where you tragically fail, as one must first assume evolution to be true for fossil evidence to prove it. This is what makes fossil records unable to prove evolution even in principle as the whole matter becomes question begging.

If science were a religion, it might prove embarrassing that scientists disagreed on some issues and even furiously debated each other over the truth of scientific claims.  The reality is that science dotes on skepticism and debates.  They aren't earning their salaries if their only activity is to suppress controversy and cover up the truth.  That type of behavior should be left for those who try to rationalize preposterous religious claims.  ;)  BTW, Darwin didn't have much of a fossil record to work with.  The fact that so much has been discovered since his time, including the science of genetics and the discovery of DNA, is considered supportive of the theory.  The strength of science is not in what it tells us about what we have discovered so much as what it tells us about what we will discover.
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stathei

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2008, 07:23:00 AM »

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Most animals that lived in the past did not leave fossil remains

That's a bit of an understatement, Cop - it has been estimated that if every man, woman and child in America were to die and be allowed to lie where they fell, the remains which would become fossilized might be as much as half a skeleton! Then you have to find it a few million years down the line. Creationists' criticism of the fossil record is based entirely on the ignorance that they so lovingly embrace.
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End Bringer

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2008, 10:28:22 AM »

Evolution predicts that we will find transitional fossils, not that we will find complete records of transitional fossils.  Most animals that lived in the past did not leave fossil remains, so it is hardly surprising that there are gaps in the record.

It's the fact that we have many many fossils today (certainly more now than in Darwin's day), and yet so called "transitional fossils" still remain a rarity that hurts evolution. Plus the lack of living animals where we should see some sort of transitional form, but don't.

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By now, though, what we find between the gaps is enough to prove what Darwin's theory predicted we would find.

Showing that it was assumed what it was looking to prove. And as I said before the ones evolutionist constantly name as 'evidence' always turn out to be the same handful of disputable ones. They have to be interpreted as transitional, by those who believe transitional fossils exsist.

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What we do not find is fossil evidence of miraculous spontaneous generations that had no connection to any of the major phyla, nor do find find evidence to contradict the timelines that scientists have established for evolution.  For example, no human fossils are found in strata with dinosaur fossils, which indicates that hominids/humans have only relatively recently appeared on Earth.[/quote}

Hehehe. You sight the rarity of fossilization to show why a lack of transitional fossils is not surprising, yet want to ignore it in this case, especially given that in a pre-Flood era human population wouldn't be very high, and as we've seen from various tsunami's where water and other factors can simply leave no trace of a body. Of course this doesn't even go into the fact that not finding two fossils together merely means they weren't buried together. There are some 'living fossils' that evolutionist believe exsisted along side dinosaurs, yet we don't find fossils of humans along side them even though we live together today.

And as far as timeline and spontaneous generations goes, now I know you haven't looked into the issue enough, since fossils are constantly shifted to try and make the evolutionary timeline fit. And the Cambrian Explosion is tacit admission of animal phyla appearing abruptly with no known transitional forms preceding them. Instead of gradual divirgence, the fossil record constantly shows the differences being abrupt at the beginning.

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The reality is that science dotes on skepticism and debates.  They aren't earning their salaries if their only activity is to suppress controversy and cover up the truth.  That type of behavior should be left for those who try to rationalize preposterous religious claims.  ;) 

How perfectly you describe evolutionists, as evolution is indeed a philosophy and we do indeed have evidence of them suppressing controversy: http://sntjohnny.com/front/fired-for-advocating-intelligent-design-the-evolutionary-inquisition-continues-orthodox-science-not-to-be-questioned/209.html

Too bad some can't differentiate a religion in the guise of science. Especially given how evolution was accepted before such extensive study into fossil records, and has made some evolutionists admit that they'll continue to believe evolution no matter what the fossil record says.

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BTW, Darwin didn't have much of a fossil record to work with.  The fact that so much has been discovered since his time, including the science of genetics and the discovery of DNA, is considered supportive of the theory.  The strength of science is not in what it tells us about what we have discovered so much as what it tells us about what we will discover.

I know. And it's the fact that had Darwin known how complex cells were (in his day he believed most of it useless junk), how much DNA speaks to ID, and how the evidence constantly points to a steady fall downwards of genetic info. he would have hung his head in defeat. The more we discover the less likely evolution becomes (as constant and often contradictory explanations have to be given to maintain it), as opposed to those who readily embrassed it back in Darwin's day had so little info to go on. Not that it stopped them from promoting it as fact.

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That's a bit of an understatement, Cop - it has been estimated that if every man, woman and child in America were to die and be allowed to lie where they fell, the remains which would become fossilized might be as much as half a skeleton!

Which is why sighting that human and dinosaur fossils haven't been found together is so amusing.

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Creationists' criticism of the fossil record is based entirely on the ignorance that they so lovingly embrace.

And evolutionists' interpretation of the fossil records is based on the dogma they so lovingly embraced. :wink:
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stathei

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2008, 05:23:57 PM »

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Which is why sighting that human and dinosaur fossils haven't been found together is so amusing.

I didn't cite that - the notion that humans and dinosaurs coexisted is so hilarious I'm not going to dignify it by addressing it again. Last time I did, the creationist's "evidence" was that there were fairy tales about dragons, so obviously someone must have seen a dino! And this guy has the gall to refute the work of giants like Stephen Hawking? Please, Lord.


 [magic

This is another example of the phenomenon whereby the undeniable is explained by the implausible. Sorry guys, but if you think the Earth is only 40 times the age of my granny, you are going to have trouble making the undeniable plausible while keeping God in the picture.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 05:40:34 PM by stathei »
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End Bringer

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2008, 11:07:33 PM »

I didn't cite that[/qutoe]

Did I say you did?

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This is another example of the phenomenon whereby the undeniable is explained by the implausible.

Another perfect description of evolutionists. Or those who try to explain the ressurection any other way. Or abiogenisis. Or the statistical condition for earth even being able to support life. Or the cosmic singularity of the Big Bang being explained any other way. I could go on and on.
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stathei

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2008, 11:31:33 PM »

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I could go on and on.

I noticed. :smt015
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The Sasquatch

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2008, 01:20:40 PM »

Stat:

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Just wanted to give the creationists' definition of macroevolution and microevolution for those who are watching ... There is, of course, no difference between the two.

From Berkley University:

Macroevolution generally refers to evolution above the species level. So instead of focusing on an individual beetle species, a macroevolutionary lens might require that we zoom out on the tree of life, to assess the diversity of the entire beetle clade and its position on the tree.

Microevolution is evolution on a small scale
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Copernicus

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2008, 03:11:33 PM »

It's the fact that we have many many fossils today (certainly more now than in Darwin's day), and yet so called "transitional fossils" still remain a rarity that hurts evolution. Plus the lack of living animals where we should see some sort of transitional form, but don't.

Darwin's argument had almost entirely to do with observations about intraspecies variation and the fact that very similar species tended to cluster together geographically.  Give that "intelligent design" was the prevailing scientific theory in his time, scientists found it hard to explain why species tended to cluster together in that way.  Presumably, God need not have left such skewed patterns of plant and animal populations around the planet.  Darwin himself never understood the mechanism by which intraspecies variation led to speciation, and that was considered a major weakness in his theory.  The fossil record was suggestive, but not as conclusive as it is in modern times.  Hence, his theory, for all its elegance, met with widespread skepticism during his lifetime, and he felt pressured to soften some of his original claims late in life.

The idea that there are few "transitional fossils" in the modern record is completely false, and geologist Donald Prothero (New Scientist, Feb. 2008) has aptly called this deceptive claim the creationists' "favorite lie".  Extensive lists of such fossils have been compiled (e.g. the Transitional Vertebrate Fossils List, which was published at talkorigins over 10 years ago.  As for living animals, every single species in existence is an example of a transitional form.  Evolution never stops.

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By now, though, what we find between the gaps is enough to prove what Darwin's theory predicted we would find.

Showing that it was assumed what it was looking to prove. And as I said before the ones evolutionist constantly name as 'evidence' always turn out to be the same handful of disputable ones. They have to be interpreted as transitional, by those who believe transitional fossils exsist.

Again, you repeat the "favourite lie".  The OP is a case in point.  It cannot be among the "handful of disputable ones", since it was just recently discovered.  But the record is full of such examples, as the talkorigins FAQ and other sources make very clear.  There is no feeling at all among scientists that the record of transitional fossils is somehow small and impoverished.

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What we do not find is fossil evidence of miraculous spontaneous generations that had no connection to any of the major phyla, nor do find find evidence to contradict the timelines that scientists have established for evolution.  For example, no human fossils are found in strata with dinosaur fossils, which indicates that hominids/humans have only relatively recently appeared on Earth.[/quote}

Hehehe. You sight the rarity of fossilization to show why a lack of transitional fossils is not surprising...

False.  I never said that there was a lack of transitional fossils, only that there were gaps in the fossil record.

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...yet want to ignore it in this case, especially given that in a pre-Flood era human population wouldn't be very high, and as we've seen from various tsunami's where water and other factors can simply leave no trace of a body. Of course this doesn't even go into the fact that not finding two fossils together merely means they weren't buried together. There are some 'living fossils' that evolutionist believe exsisted along side dinosaurs, yet we don't find fossils of humans along side them even though we live together today.

There is no geologic evidence for the biblical flood, although there is evidence of great floods that would have given rise to the flood myth in ancient times.  As for your "living fossils" claim, suggest at least one concrete example of what you are talking about.  The fossil record shows the ubiquitous presence of hominids long before modern humans came to appear, and not even hominid fossil remains are found in strata with dinosaurs.

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And as far as timeline and spontaneous generations goes, now I know you haven't looked into the issue enough, since fossils are constantly shifted to try and make the evolutionary timeline fit. And the Cambrian Explosion is tacit admission of animal phyla appearing abruptly with no known transitional forms preceding them. Instead of gradual divirgence, the fossil record constantly shows the differences being abrupt at the beginning.

The so-called "Cambrian explosion" took place over an immense period of time, and there are reasonable explanations for why the fossil record from that era is even spottier than the record from more recent strata.  What you call "abrupt" actually took place over a period that is almost impossible for humans to conceive of--roughly 70-80 million years.  The metaphor "explosion" misleads people into thinking that it referred to a sudden event, but the "suddenness" is only relative to other periods where there was more stability in the biosphere.

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The reality is that science dotes on skepticism and debates.  They aren't earning their salaries if their only activity is to suppress controversy and cover up the truth.  That type of behavior should be left for those who try to rationalize preposterous religious claims.  ;)

How perfectly you describe evolutionists, as evolution is indeed a philosophy and we do indeed have evidence of them suppressing controversy: http://sntjohnny.com/front/fired-for-advocating-intelligent-design-the-evolutionary-inquisition-continues-orthodox-science-not-to-be-questioned/209.html

Nonsense.  Scientists do not publish papers that attempt to refute unproven crackpot ideas.  Intelligent design had its scientific airing in the 18th and 19th centuries, and it is no longer a serious contender.  The reason that it no longer merits publication is that it makes no verifiable predictions.  In the 19th century, its defenders came up with every imagineable excuse to try to save it in the face of Darwin's much more compelling argument.

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BTW, Darwin didn't have much of a fossil record to work with.  The fact that so much has been discovered since his time, including the science of genetics and the discovery of DNA, is considered supportive of the theory.  The strength of science is not in what it tells us about what we have discovered so much as what it tells us about what we will discover.

I know. And it's the fact that had Darwin known how complex cells were (in his day he believed most of it useless junk), how much DNA speaks to ID, and how the evidence constantly points to a steady fall downwards of genetic info. he would have hung his head in defeat. The more we discover the less likely evolution becomes (as constant and often contradictory explanations have to be given to maintain it), as opposed to those who readily embrassed it back in Darwin's day had so little info to go on. Not that it stopped them from promoting it as fact.

You are woefully ignorant of the history of how evolutionism came to be the dominant scientific theory.  Darwin's theory was criticized most strongly precisely because he did not understand the mechanism behind intraspecies variation, although he knew that there was something there.  He did not recognize the work in genetics that later came to put the nail in the coffin for the argument from design.  Once that mechanism was understood, scientists had little more reason to cling to theological naturalism.  The discovery of DNA in the 20th century was only another nail in what was already firmly sealed scientific consensus.  We now have so much evidence from so many different sources of information to confirm evolution, that the few scientists funded by creationists (e.g. those in the Discovery Institute) are basically limited to debates with philosophers and lectures to the faithful.
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rareairpug

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2008, 12:02:29 AM »

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Intelligent design had its scientific airing in the 18th and 19th centuries, and it is no longer a serious contender.  The reason that it no longer merits publication is that it makes no verifiable predictions.

What verifiable predictions does evolution make?
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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2008, 01:57:01 AM »

Hence, his theory, for all its elegance, met with widespread skepticism during his lifetime, and he felt pressured to soften some of his original claims late in life.

 :roll: Oh brother, the same 'he gave in to peer pressure' line you had with Einstein. You can at least try not to contradict yourself in the same paragraph with making Darwin out to be some nonconformist of the 'mainstream', and then say he went along with the crowd.

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The idea that there are few "transitional fossils" in the modern record is completely false, and geologist Donald Prothero (New Scientist, Feb. 2008) has aptly called this deceptive claim the creationists' "favorite lie".

You mean where he introduced his list of alleged transitional fossils with and I quote:
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 02:04:56 AM by End Bringer »
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Copernicus

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2008, 08:10:00 AM »

What verifiable predictions does evolution make?

Evolution represents a theory of the origin of species, and it makes predictions that we will continually discover evidence to support its claim that environment, and not some other agency, customizes the forms that life takes.  In Darwin's time, there was no known mechanism that explained intraspecies variation.  When the science of genetics was discovered, it supplied the mechanism that Darwin's theory predicted was there.  More recently, we have discovered DNA, which allow us to prove that we share genetic material with other species at the molecular level.  It predicts that new species will evolve over time, and new discoveries of the fossil record have continued to confirm that prediction for well over a century now.  It predicts the discovery of transitional fossils, and we have now amassed a record that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that different species have common ancestry.  It predicts that bacteria will evolve to overcome antibiotic treatments, and we have tested and verified that fact.  It predicts that the phenomenon of "ring species" will occasionally be discovered, and we have discovered several good examples of that.  It predicts that we will find evidence that snakes have common ancestry with reptiles that have limbs, and...well...see the OP.  More importantly, it predicts that we will not find counter-evidence to common descent, e.g. that the same species will arise independently of each other in different geographical locations.  Geographical distribution of related species was one thing that scientists could not explain well before Darwin and Wallace came up with their theory of natural selection.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 08:13:43 AM by Copernicus »
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