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rareairpug

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2008, 11:15:50 PM »

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Yes, but relevant to the issue of whether or not the fossil supports or contradicts the Christian hypothesis.  I don't see the need for a new thread just to discuss the question of the fossil's relevance to Genesis.

The question I was addressing was whether the existence of a snake with legs supports or contradicts the Christian worldview.

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Given that the age of the fossil contradicts the claim that the discovery "fits into the opposing model", I maintain that the age of the fossil is a point in my favor.

The hypothesized age of the fossil by certain people would be a point in your favor--of course, I don't find their hypothesis sound.  That is why it would be a discussion for another thread.

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We don't see snakes with legs today for the same reason that we don't see whales with legs and hominids other than humans.  They've all gone

If snakes evolved legs to adapt to their environment better, then how come all the more evolved creatures died out and the legless ones remained?

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OK, listen up.  You need to read this Wikipedia page on Charles Lyell, the most important geologist of his time. The man was a creationist, and his findings on the age of the Earth strongly influenced Darwin.  Although a personal friend of Darwin, he never bought off on the theory of evolution.  Like most Christians of his time, he believed in special creation, but he could not accept the flood myth, because it didn't square with geological findings.  It had nothing whatsoever to do with evolution.  You've got your history backwards.  Darwin was influenced by geology, not vice versa.  I hope that the case for evolution has just gotten "much stronger" for you.

I read the article---uniformitarianism.  I remain unconvinced.  I'll give you that there were earlier theories of a very old earth, but I'll maintain that they would never have caught fire and been promulgated as they are if not for Darwin's need for it.  By the way, what was Lyell's predicted age of earth?

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The scale issue with gravity has to do with the inverse square law, so its effects diminish more rapidly when smaller objects are separated from larger objects by distance.  Scale matters, because it is part of the equation.  Probability is not a physical law in that sense.  It is about statistical likelihood.

I feel like you keep shifting the conversation.  Let's put the scale question to the side for the moment (I have not forgotten it).  I am not sure we are on the same page.  Explain to me how evolution is based on probability.  Survival of the fittest okay, but additional genetic material?

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You seem to imply that evolution is NOT a physical system.  If it is (or at least you say the processes "may or may not be") then I suppose you need to re-address my gravity example.

Evolution is a process that can be applied in the abstract to both physical and non-physical systems.  Basically, all it says is that self-replicating processes that are better at producing copies of themselves will overwhelm competing processes that are worse.  Survival of the fittest.  It is really just common sense.  When the theory of evolution is used to explain speciation, things get more complicated.  Then we are talking about alleles in a gene pool, DNA, random mutation of DNA molecules, and the like.

So we are applying it to a physical system in this case are we not?  How is my gravity example not relevant?
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End Bringer

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2008, 11:38:59 PM »

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OK, listen up.  You need to read this Wikipedia page on Charles Lyell, the most important geologist of his time. The man was a creationist, and his findings on the age of the Earth strongly influenced Darwin.  Although a personal friend of Darwin, he never bought off on the theory of evolution.  Like most Christians of his time, he believed in special creation, but he could not accept the flood myth, because it didn't square with geological findings.  It had nothing whatsoever to do with evolution.  You've got your history backwards.  Darwin was influenced by geology, not vice versa.  I hope that the case for evolution has just gotten "much stronger" for you.

I read the article---uniformitarianism.  I remain unconvinced.  I'll give you that there were earlier theories of a very old earth, but I'll maintain that they would never have caught fire and been promulgated as they are if not for Darwin's need for it.  By the way, what was Lyell's predicted age of earth?

I think this aspect of the debate is a bit deceptive. Darwin may have been influenced by previous old Earth theories but it's still evolution's need for it that influenced an older Earth outlook. The deceptive part is that the idea of evolution didn't start with Darwin. He just discovered the mechanism of microevolution that allowed atheists the foundation they needed. As such the need to give the evolution model millions of years can still be said as the motivating factor for such an outlook.
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Copernicus

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2008, 01:38:05 AM »

I think this aspect of the debate is a bit deceptive. Darwin may have been influenced by previous old Earth theories but it's still evolution's need for it that influenced an older Earth outlook. The deceptive part is that the idea of evolution didn't start with Darwin. He just discovered the mechanism of microevolution that allowed atheists the foundation they needed. As such the need to give the evolution model millions of years can still be said as the motivating factor for such an outlook.

Once again, you are completely wrong, EB.  Lyell's Old Earth hypothesis was itself based on James Hutton's seminal work.  Hutton was the father of modern geology, and he was working to understand his observations of rocks and fossils in light of Young Earth creationism, which was the prevailing scientific hypothesis in his time.  Hutton was not a Christian, but a deist.  Unfortunately, his writing was difficult for others to understand, and Lyell actually restated Hutton's work in a more palatable form.  Lyell was a devout Christian, the same as you and rareairpug, but he could not reconcile young Earth creationism with geology.  So he attacked the idea of the flood myth in the Bible, not creationism. 

Darwin did not discover microevolution or the "mechanism" of microevolution.  That is complete hogwash.  He developed the theory that you creationists like to call "macroevolution", and he based his theory on exhaustive studies of geographical patterns of distribution of intraspecies and extra species characteristics.  The prevailing scientific interpretation of speciation in Darwin's and Lyell's time was creationism--that species were essentially immutable, although there could be a wide range of variation within species.  Speciation itself was held to have been of divine origin, just as the Bible claimed. 

Darwin waited decades to publish his findings, primarily because he wanted to nail down every conceivable objection to the theory.  Geology and fossils played relatively little role in Darwin's theory.**  Rather he was most strongly influenced by Thomas Malthus' ideas on population growth, which gave him his idea for natural selection.  For an excellent, short, very readable biography of Darwin, see David Quammen's The Reluctant Mr. Darwin, which went into great detail on his times, the development of his theory, and his attitudes towards religion.  Although a religious skeptic, he was strongly influenced by his wife, who was a devout Christian and strong believer in the Bible.

** Hutton did actually develop a concept of natural selection that was remarkably like Darwin's, although he did not develop his idea much at all.  Darwin's grandfather also had similar ideas, but it was really Malthus who brought about Darwin's epiphany concerning natural selection as the basic mechanism behind evolution.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 01:43:05 AM by Copernicus »
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Copernicus

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2008, 02:20:48 AM »

If snakes evolved legs to adapt to their environment better, then how come all the more evolved creatures died out and the legless ones remained?

No one can say for certain, although the likely explanation is that conditions in the environment changed in such a way as to make the legs a liability for that niche.  Perhaps they were a hindrance in burrowing underground.  Perhaps they simply required too many resources to maintain without conveying any particular advantage to the animal.

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I read the article---uniformitarianism.  I remain unconvinced.  I'll give you that there were earlier theories of a very old earth, but I'll maintain that they would never have caught fire and been promulgated as they are if not for Darwin's need for it.  By the way, what was Lyell's predicted age of earth?

Actually, it was James Hutton who came up with much of the original geological theory.  Lyell simply reformulated Hutton's ideas in clearer, more accessible prose.  Darwin read Lyell's work during his famous voyage on the Beagle.

It was James Ussher who came up with the original chronology from the Bible that established the Young Earth hypothesis back in the early 17th century.  James Hutton's work in geology quickly arose to challenge that hypothesis, and that was what gave birth to the modern science of geology.  Fossils became an embarrassment for Ussher, because marine fossils were found all over the Earth at very high elevations.  Hutton theorized that the Earth had a molten core (which was later verified), and that caused rock strata that were formed below sea level to be thrust up into high elevations.  All of that was well before Darwin's theory came along to explain patterns of fossils found in rock strata.

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I feel like you keep shifting the conversation.  Let's put the scale question to the side for the moment (I have not forgotten it).  I am not sure we are on the same page.  Explain to me how evolution is based on probability.  Survival of the fittest okay, but additional genetic material?

Given long periods of time, those traits that help organisms to produce more offspring are more likely than not to crowd out the less efficient producers, other things being equal.  I have no idea what you mean by "additional genetic material".  That has nothing to do with the theory of evolution, which was established before anyone became aware of the existence of genes.

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So we are applying it to a physical system in this case are we not?  How is my gravity example not relevant?

You have not explained how it is relevant.  I explained why scale made sense with the theory of gravity (inverse square law) but not probability, which has to do with statistically likely or unlikely outcomes.
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End Bringer

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2008, 03:15:06 AM »

Once again, you are completely wrong, EB.  Lyell's Old Earth hypothesis was itself based on James Hutton's seminal work.  Hutton was the father of modern geology, and he was working to understand his observations of rocks and fossils in light of Young Earth creationism, which was the prevailing scientific hypothesis in his time.  Hutton was not a Christian, but a deist.  Unfortunately, his writing was difficult for others to understand, and Lyell actually restated Hutton's work in a more palatable form.  Lyell was a devout Christian, the same as you and rareairpug, but he could not reconcile young Earth creationism with geology.  So he attacked the idea of the flood myth in the Bible, not creationism. 

And? Lyell's perception of geology has no baring on what geology was influenced by. That Darwin can be influenced by Lyell only puts the question a step back and say what was the understanding of geology at the time influenced by? If Lyell couldn't reconcile geology with Young Earth it only goes to show how geology can have been influenced by the need for time in evolution. Not Darwin, but evolution.

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Darwin did not discover microevolution or the "mechanism" of microevolution.  That is complete hogwash.  He developed the theory that you creationists like to call "macroevolution", and he based his theory on exhaustive studies of geographical patterns of distribution of intraspecies and extra species characteristics.  The prevailing scientific interpretation of speciation in Darwin's and Lyell's time was creationism--that species were essentially immutable, although there could be a wide range of variation within species.  Speciation itself was held to have been of divine origin, just as the Bible claimed. 

Hahahahaha! Cop. you just get more and more amusing. Obviously Darwin developed the theory of macroevolution. He did so because all macroevolution is is taking microevolution and believing it can occur on a larger scale, though this has yet to be proven. As such all he showed was the mechanism of microevolution and putting it on a very imaginative larger scale.

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Darwin waited decades to publish his findings, primarily because he wanted to nail down every conceivable objection to the theory.  Geology and fossils played relatively little role in Darwin's theory.**  Rather he was most strongly influenced by Thomas Malthus' ideas on population growth, which gave him his idea for natural selection.  For an excellent, short, very readable biography of Darwin, see David Quammen's The Reluctant Mr. Darwin, which went into great detail on his times, the development of his theory, and his attitudes towards religion.  Although a religious skeptic, he was strongly influenced by his wife, who was a devout Christian and strong believer in the Bible.

Funny, how you say that how patient he was, yet his own comments note how he recognized several problems he couldn't address such as altruism, the fossil record, and many other problems that have yet to be resolved to this day. Besides I don't think the issue was what Darwin was influenced by, and you prove yourself contradicting again by saying Darwin was influenced by geology while now saying it had little role in his theory, but what the relationship of influence between geology and evolution. As noted Old Earth theories were in circulation before Darwin, but once evolution was considered as "fact" the need to make sure the time needed for evolution couldn't be taken away is very much a factor in the crticism (or lack thereof) of geologic interpretation.

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** Hutton did actually develop a concept of natural selection that was remarkably like Darwin's, although he did not develop his idea much at all.  Darwin's grandfather also had similar ideas, but it was really Malthus who brought about Darwin's epiphany concerning natural selection as the basic mechanism behind evolution.

And in this entire strawman you are merely shown to fail to address the underlining issue I raised. The interpretation of geology to make up the old Earth theory can still be justified by evolutions need for it by the fact that Darwin is not the source for the idea of evolution. Was Darwin influenced by a geological view of old Earth? Sure. Can Old Earth still be said to be influenced by evolution's need for it? Yep. As such it's a circular arguement that since one is decided to be true the other MUST be true. And since it MUST be true it proves the other to be true.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 09:55:41 AM by End Bringer »
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Copernicus

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2008, 12:38:12 PM »

And? Lyell's perception of geology has no baring on what geology was influenced by. That Darwin can be influenced by Lyell only puts the question a step back and say what was the understanding of geology at the time influenced by? If Lyell couldn't reconcile geology with Young Earth it only goes to show how geology can have been influenced by the need for time in evolution. Not Darwin, but evolution.

You have completely muddled the history and the subject matter, EB, but that is nothing new.  Lyell was one of the major figures of his time in geology, and he never accepted Darwin's theory.  What he gave Darwin was a basis for the amount of time needed for evolution to take place, but the geological theories of Hutton and Lyell were in no way influenced by theories of biological evolution.  Quite the reverse.


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Hahahahaha! Cop. you just get more and more amusing. Obviously Darwin developed the theory of macroevolution. He did so because all macroevolution is is taking microevolution and believing it can occur on a larger scale, though this has yet to be proven.  As such all he showed was the mechanism of microevolution and putting it on a very imaginative larger scale.

That was one of your nuttiest paragraphs yet, EB.  Well, I've tried to bring a little more education your way on this subject, but you bring new meaning to the expression "willful ignorance".  You either cannot understand the discussion, or you refuse to contemplate the issues.  The distinction between "microevolution" and "macroevolution" did not really become part of the debate until recently.  Darwin did not even know about genes.


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Funny, how you say that how patient he was, yet his own comments note how he recognized several problems he couldn't address such as altruism, the fossil record, and many other problems that have yet to be resolved to this day.  Besides I don't think the issue was what Darwin was influenced by, and you prove yourself contradicting again by saying Darwin was influenced by geology while now saying it had little role in his theory, but what the relationship of influence between geology and evolution. As noted Old Earth theories were in circulation before Darwin, but once evolution was considered as "fact" the need to make sure the time needed for evolution couldn't be taken away is very much a factor in the crticism (or lack thereof) of geologic interpretation.

Geology gave Darwin the concept of geologic time, which was necessary for a theory of gradual evolution to make sense.  Nothing more.  Geological theories preceded the biological theory, did not depend on it, and were not influenced by it.  I gave you David Quammen's book as an excellent reference on the subject.  It is short, readable, and probably understandable even to someone with your limited background.  However, I do not kid myself that you will make any effort to inform yourself about the actual history.  You would much rather entertain fantasies that conform to your prejudgments.

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And in this entire strawman you are merely shown to fail to address the underlining issue I raised. The interpretation of geology to make up the old Earth theory can still be justified by evolutions need for it by the fact that Darwin is not the source for the idea of evolution. Was Darwin influenced by a geological view of old Earth? Sure. Can Old Earth still be said to be influenced by evolution's need for it? Yep. As such it's a circular arguement that since one is decided to be true the other MUST be true. And since it MUST be true it proves the other to be true.

The only circular argument is in your own fevered imagination and your own tortured logic.  Darwin did not invent the idea of common descent, which had been speculated on even in ancient times.  What he brought to the table was a coherent theory of natural selection that could be supported in detail by an exhaustive comparison of geographically co-located living species.  He showed how changes in environment could directly affect the traits observed in descendant populations.  His theory was independently arrived at by Wallace, who deferred publication of his thesis in order to let Darwin (who had long procrasinated publishing his theory) take the lead.  Nothing in the biological theories preceded or influenced the independent development of geological theories on the formation of sediment and the age of the Earth.
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rareairpug

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2008, 01:28:44 PM »

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No one can say for certain, although the likely explanation is that conditions in the environment changed in such a way as to make the legs a liability for that niche.  Perhaps they were a hindrance in burrowing underground.  Perhaps they simply required too many resources to maintain without conveying any particular advantage to the animal.

That doesn't say much for evolution's ability to create a more advanced creature.

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I read the article---uniformitarianism.  I remain unconvinced.  I'll give you that there were earlier theories of a very old earth, but I'll maintain that they would never have caught fire and been promulgated as they are if not for Darwin's need for it.  By the way, what was Lyell's predicted age of earth?

It was James Ussher who came up with the original chronology from the Bible that established the Young Earth hypothesis back in the early 17th century.  James Hutton's work in geology quickly arose to challenge that hypothesis, and that was what gave birth to the modern science of geology.  Fossils became an embarrassment for Ussher, because marine fossils were found all over the Earth at very high elevations.  Hutton theorized that the Earth had a molten core (which was later verified), and that caused rock strata that were formed below sea level to be thrust up into high elevations.  All of that was well before Darwin's theory came along to explain patterns of fossils found in rock strata.

Did you find out what age Lyell predicted the earth to be yet?

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Given long periods of time, those traits that help organisms to produce more offspring are more likely than not to crowd out the less efficient producers, other things being equal.  I have no idea what you mean by "additional genetic material".  That has nothing to do with the theory of evolution, which was established before anyone became aware of the existence of genes.

Yes, certain traits are likely to crowd out other traits based on which ones are more beneficial to survival.  What I'm asking is how that corresponds to a amoeba supposedly evolving into a fish or something.  This is where the scale issue applies in my humble opinion.  You feel that a series of small changes can get you from one organism to another, but that doesn't happen without some large scale changes in the actual makeup of the creature.  It is one thing to say that amoebas that swim faster are going to replace amoebas that swim slower.  It is quite another thing to say that amoebas are going to sprout fins or legs.  That is not a matter of probability.

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So we are applying it to a physical system in this case are we not?  How is my gravity example not relevant?

You have not explained how it is relevant.  I explained why scale made sense with the theory of gravity (inverse square law) but not probability, which has to do with statistically likely or unlikely outcomes.

You didn't answer my question. Are we applying evolution to a physical system or not?
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Copernicus

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2008, 02:40:48 PM »

No one can say for certain, although the likely explanation is that conditions in the environment changed in such a way as to make the legs a liability for that niche.  Perhaps they were a hindrance in burrowing underground.  Perhaps they simply required too many resources to maintain without conveying any particular advantage to the animal.

That doesn't say much for evolution's ability to create a more advanced creature.

What natural selection leads to depends on the challenges presented in the environment (which are always in flux), the possible ways that offspring can mutate, and the rate of mutation over generations.  Humans did not exist for thousands of millions of years--an unimaginable span of time--simply because the right conditions for them to appear did not occur until relatively recently.  From a geological perspective, our form of intelligent life might not be the most "advanced" or successful.  Geologically speaking, we have only been here in the blink of an eye, and we may disappear in a blink.  Perhaps we are too unstable a lifeform to make it over the long haul.

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Did you find out what age Lyell predicted the earth to be yet?

According to this talkorigins page on the changing views of the history of the earth, both Hutton and Lyle believed that the earth was indefinitely old.  Their main argument was that it could not be as young as Ussher and his legacy claimed.  Prior to them, Buffon (1775) claimed the range from 75000 to several billion years old.  We have far better information to support estimates now, obviously.

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Yes, certain traits are likely to crowd out other traits based on which ones are more beneficial to survival.  What I'm asking is how that corresponds to a amoeba supposedly evolving into a fish or something.  This is where the scale issue applies in my humble opinion.  You feel that a series of small changes can get you from one organism to another, but that doesn't happen without some large scale changes in the actual makeup of the creature.  It is one thing to say that amoebas that swim faster are going to replace amoebas that swim slower.  It is quite another thing to say that amoebas are going to sprout fins or legs.  That is not a matter of probability.

Your concept of how evolution works is all wrong.  It is not about sudden large scale shifts in organisms.  We are talking about small incremental shifts over huge numbers of generations.  You don't have a feel for the time scales.  Dawkins does a very good job of explaining them.  He points out that the major conceptual problem is that our longest direct experience of time is a human lifespan, but that amount of time is insignificant from a geological perspective.  He wrote a book called Climbing Mount Improbable just to tackle this one issue of how to make geologic time understandable to humans.

It is very important not to fall into Behe's trap concerning complexity.  If you juxtapose an amoeba to a vertebrate, you aren't going to see how they can have a common ancestor.  It becomes easier when you compare donkeys and horses, which can still produce offspring, even though their common ancestor is long extinct.  But Behe made the mistake of thinking that an organ could only have a single purpose, when, in fact, it can have several purposes.  Changed versions over time can gradually come to have a completely different function.  So a mousetrap might not start out as a mousetrap.  If might start out as a coat hangar that gets used for other purposes, but whose function gradually shifts to trapping mouses as it is bent into newer and newer configurations.  New functionality is an emergent property of gradual change.

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...I explained why scale made sense with the theory of gravity (inverse square law) but not probability, which has to do with statistically likely or unlikely outcomes.

You didn't answer my question. Are we applying evolution to a physical system or not?

The question could be answered differently (either "yes" or "no"), depending on what you mean by "evolution" and "physical system".  Evolution as a general concept can be modeled in a non-physical sense, e.g. in a computer simulation.  On the other hand, we are applying it to real changes in the physical world.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 03:07:20 PM by Copernicus »
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rareairpug

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2008, 08:54:20 PM »

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Your concept of how evolution works is all wrong.  It is not about sudden large scale shifts in organisms.  We are talking about small incremental shifts over huge numbers of generations.  You don't have a feel for the time scales.

Read what I wrote again:
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You feel that a series of small changes can get you from one organism to another

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Dawkins does a very good job of explaining them.  He points out that the major conceptual problem is that our longest direct experience of time is a human lifespan, but that amount of time is insignificant from a geological perspective.  He wrote a book called Climbing Mount Improbable just to tackle this one issue of how to make geologic time understandable to humans.
It is very important not to fall into Behe's trap concerning complexity.  If you juxtapose an amoeba to a vertebrate, you aren't going to see how they can have a common ancestor.  It becomes easier when you compare donkeys and horses, which can still produce offspring, even though their common ancestor is long extinct.

I believe I understand that you think small changes over infinite time could produce anything, but I don't find a compelling reason to think that there is an unlimited possibility for change.  How can you be sure that there are not limits to what changes are possible?

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But Behe made the mistake of thinking that an organ could only have a single purpose, when, in fact, it can have several purposes.  Changed versions over time can gradually come to have a completely different function.  So a mousetrap might not start out as a mousetrap.  If might start out as a coat hangar that gets used for other purposes, but whose function gradually shifts to trapping mouses as it is bent into newer and newer configurations.  New functionality is an emergent property of gradual change.

Perhaps, but you still have to deal with the problem of added material.  You start with a coat hanger which could conceivably be bent into a catch for the mousetrap, sure.  But there is nothing to anchor it to.  Where does the base of wood come from?  You didn't start with that as a part.

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You didn't answer my question. Are we applying evolution to a physical system or not?

The question could be answered differently (either "yes" or "no"), depending on what you mean by "evolution" and "physical system".  Evolution as a general concept can be modeled in a non-physical sense, e.g. in a computer simulation.  On the other hand, we are applying it to real changes in the physical world.

Go back and read some of your earlier posts.  You dragged this terminology into the discussion and now you are trying to back out of it.  You are the one that said physical systems are limited by scale.  If we are talking about "real changes in the physical world" then scale should apply.
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Copernicus

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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2008, 01:38:06 PM »

Read what I wrote again:
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You feel that a series of small changes can get you from one organism to another

Read what I wrote again:  "Your concept of how evolution works is all wrong.  It is not about sudden large scale shifts in organisms.  We are talking about small incremental shifts over huge numbers of generations.  You don't have a feel for the time scales.

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I believe I understand that you think small changes over infinite time could produce anything, but I don't find a compelling reason to think that there is an unlimited possibility for change.  How can you be sure that there are not limits to what changes are possible?

I never denied that such limits exist.  Such changes require huge numbers of generations to take place and spread through a gene pool.  And the only changes that can occur are those that produce viable offspring.  Arms and legs don't appear overnight.  Circumstances must exist to make viable changes more advantageous in the competition to produce offspring.  Alligators don't suddenly give birth to rabbits.  Notice that nowhere have I claimed that evolution requires an infinite amount of time.

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Perhaps, but you still have to deal with the problem of added material.  You start with a coat hanger which could conceivably be bent into a catch for the mousetrap, sure.  But there is nothing to anchor it to.  Where does the base of wood come from?  You didn't start with that as a part.

No, but a base might evolve from some interaction between the evolving coat hangar and its environment.  At some point, the contraption would begin catching mice and, assuming that catching mice helped it to self-replicate, would change in ways to become a better mousetrap.  Obviously, one can play games with metaphors, but there are plenty of good descriptions about how things such as flagella and eyes might evolve gradually over time.

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Go back and read some of your earlier posts.  You dragged this terminology into the discussion and now you are trying to back out of it.  You are the one that said physical systems are limited by scale.  If we are talking about "real changes in the physical world" then scale should apply.

I'm sorry, but I think you introduced this as an issue when you tried to twist the "scale" issue around to somehow be relevant to the microevolution/macroevolution dichotomy.  I explained quite clearly that size scale is relevant to the law of gravity because size and distance affect the force of mutual attraction between physical objects.  Evolution is a completely different kettle of fish.  It is about opportunities for events to occur, not forces of mutual attraction between physical objects of different dimensions.  We have self-replicating physical entities.  That much is certainly true.  But I can think of no reason why the size of the self-replicators ought to make any difference whatsoever.  If you can, please present the case for it.
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Re: Ancient snake with legs
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2008, 06:31:52 PM »

See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7339508.stm

I think this has something to do with the serpent mentioned in the Bible (Genesis 3:14) when God told the serpent that its legs would be taken away.

ULTRON


Actually, no God or gods said to any serpent that their legs would be removed.  The actual account can be found in the Genesis account... dust you will eat, something like that (too lazy to quote it)

Furthermore, "serpents" don't survive off dust.  Thus, this is symbolical.  This symbolical language can be found in the NT writings and they don't believe this is literal either from what I've read.
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