No words games on this one, SJ?

Evolution is obsurd it says that we are no more than products of random mutation by the highest of mathmatical chance. The chance for life accumulating the way it says in evolution are "10^40000 to 1" sir Fred Hoyle. Plus look at the facts evolutionary theory can not be recreated. need I say more.
_____________________
People are so afraid of the truth they will believe anything to get away.
" Oh adams race how you defend yourselves against all that might do you good" Aslan; The Nagicians Nephew, C.S lewis

Realist, don't you agree that the universe has been around forever, in one form or another?

"""... I will accept the evolutionary odds of our existencethe idea that a supposed diety who had been around forever (how many 10^40000 millenia is that, anyway?) got bored one day and created this universe in 7 days less than 10 thousand years ago."""

""Realist, don't you agree that the universe has been around forever, in one form or another?""

"Yes I do, SJ."

So, if you believe that the universe has abeen around forever, in one form or another, then there is nothing substantially different between our views.

Furthermore, if it is your argument that there are "undoubtedly more planets than we can imagine where the right combination of physical processes have resulted in the evolution of life" you may as well beleive that an everlasting God would have everlasting creativity, as well.  The very argument you invoke to explain our own existence naturally can be used to explain our existence non-naturally.   A creation of a universe in 6 days by this God would be inevitable.

Thus we need not concern ourselves with your 'superior' minded analysis.  You believe in God and creation, you just make yourself feel better (smarter, I guess) by believing in them under different names.

"And some, like us, have yet to shrug off religious superstitions and the fantasy of divine creation."

However, this presumes that your point of view is correct, but there is no way we can know your point of view is correct.  If anything, it may follow by your own argumentation that, as produces of evolution, these 'religious superstitions' are themselves products of evolution, and so it cannot be held against those who have them.  You may as well hold it against a person that he takes a crap after a meal.  He has as little control over these urges as he would his 'religious superstition.'

Furthermore, your own rejection of religious 'superstition' is also a result of those same evolutionary points of view, so you can't be commended, either, for having a superior point of view.

Basically, your point of view means it was inevitable for everyone to have the point of view that they had since you have an unlimited amount of universes and unlimited amount of planets inhabited by 'intelligent' entities (you, of course, being the only example on this planet).  So, you've violated sntjohnny's epistemological golden rule.  In your haste to elevate yourself, you ended the logical possibility of any knowledge being legitimate.

http://www.sntjohnny.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1613

Consequently, we need not concern ourselves too much with your arguments.  They are already found in theism, without the insanity and condescension, and they don't destroy knowledge.

"Whooaaaa there! Hold the bus!!
You really think I'm attempting to be 'superior minded'?  !!!!!"

Its a little hard not to get that message from comments like:

"And some, like us, have yet to shrug off religious superstitions and the fantasy of divine creation. I hope the day will come when we achieve the intelligence to stop relying on some nonexistant deity to save our souls,"

You do not believe or rely on some non-existant deity, do you?

And don't you believe that I am bound by 'religious superstitions' which in your tag line you say is a sign of human weakness?

You'll forgive me for drawing the patently obvious conclusion from your statements.

"As I mentioned (and you didn't in your quote of my post), I was stating my own personal theory of the existence of the universe and the life it may or may not contain. If I were attempting to be 'superior minded', I would have stated it more as fact rather than throwing darts with my eyes closed (behind my back left handed to boot!)."

This is typical post-modern false humility rubbish.  You offer a theory of humanity and the universe that reduces people to pitiful, unintelligent, superstitious creatures, but think you are being 'humble' by offering the notion as your own private view.

Hogwash.

I call that cowardice.  If you're going to insult people, at least be man enough to own up to it.

"I attribute universal existence to natural physical and evolutionary processes."

Regardless, you believe in the existence of something eternal, same as I do.  At least my view posits some reason or cause (which you reduce to 'whims') behind our ability to make sense of that eternal something.  By attributing existence to 'physical and evolutionary processes' without any whims, I suppose, you elminate the ability to make sense of anything.  You are programmed to think what you think and I am programmed to think what I think.

There is no right view or wrong view, only what the processes have produced.

So there really isn't any point in arguing about it.

"If I were as smart as you say I claim to be, I sure wouldn't be swearing at my alarm clock at 5 AM 5 days a week to put in a 10 to 12 hour shift in a machine shop! But thanks anyway for the compliment!"

I have always disagreed with the association of 'smart' with PhD's and other more 'sophisticated jobs.'  My step father spent some time as an auto-mechanic, which requires knowledge of applied physics- electronics, etc.   I have more respect for the intelligence of a man who is able to take a complicated thing that doesn't work at all and makes it work then the academic that creates theories upon theories that do absolutely nothing, never will do anything, and can't do anything, probably, in princple, anyway.

Some of the most educated people I've ever encountered are also the dumbest.  There is not necessarily a connection between one's intelligence and their occupation.

That being said, I don't have to be that bright myself in order to recognize an insulting POV when I see it.   That you hold an insulting POV humbly makes no difference.

All right, allow me to be insulting and superior minded then.

All religions are superstitions. One must be weak indeed to grovel like a lapdog at the altar of a god. I am superior because I defy the ridiculous fantasy of divine creation and accept the overwhelming evidence supporting universal evolution in all it's forms. I am not one of those pitiful, stupid humans that feign superstition for an hour on Sunday morning, fluttering their eyes towards heaven and patting themselves on the back for being such a fine christian, then spend the other 167 hours of the week displaying my hypcorisy with sacrafices towards the idols of wealth, greed, arrogance and pride. Don't you dare tax MY wealth! Let the poor find their own food and shelter!
I'm insulting and superior minded? I don't attempt to force others to accept my beliefs and threaten them with eternal d--nation if they don't grovel at the altar with me (Don't forget your tithe! The vatican needs new carpet of the finest cloth and and golden teacups!)
I don't advocate writing atheistic beliefs into our constitution, or laws, or stacking our Supreme Court with atheistic zealots. I don't advocate teaching atheistic ideals in our public schools. I don't advocate using atheism to define public policy.
jesusboy says we can overcome our greed, envy (envy? I would say arrogance), and selfishness by trusting jesus. The whacked out rightwing christian zealots that are fighting to put this country in a stranglehold prove otherwise.
I am BETTER than that.
I believe that the wealthiest nation in the world is responsible for the welfare of the poor. If I'm considered a godless liberal for advocating taxing the rich to aid the poor, then better to be a godless liberal (and d--n proud of it) than a brainwashed Pat Robertson bobblead rightwing pissant! I don't toss a few alms to the poor to save my pathetic soul, I donate to foodbanks because it's the right thing to do. If I'm a godless liberal for denouncing an illegitimate war waged on the lies and deceit of an illegitimate, 'godfearing' president, then better to be a godless liberal than a godfearing rightwing pissant warmonger.
I'm better than you SJ. I don't let superstition guide my actions yet I have a very distinct understanding of right and wrong. I am the result of the evolutionary processes that made me, not the descendent of some fictitional guy made out of clay.
If this makes me a coward, than better a coward than a lapdog groveling at the altar of a nonexistant god.
Pardon my insulting POV, but atheists are far superior to superstitious theists. Sorry about that - it's just the way the evolutionary processes work.

That will be $80.00, but don't get used to that.  That's just the cost of the initial consulting.  Weekly therapy sessions are going to run you about $150.00 an hour.  I figure in your case 52 weeks are necessary.

I'm not the one with superstitious beliefs. Who needs counseling?

Realist, have you done any personal fact-finding regarding evolutionary theory and intelligent design?

Hey! What did you guys think of my rant! I thought it sounded kind of, what's a good word......ranty? Yeah, that works. It was ranty!
Didn't mean to insult anybody, but SJ was pushing for a rant, and what the boss man wants the boss man gets! It took me a couple of shots of my good bourbon to come up with that stuff, but I think for a non-ranter it sounded, well, ranty!
Now if you will excuse me, I just got done with another 12 hour shift at the ol' sweat shop, and I gotta get my ranty, superior minded backside into the shower!

P.S. Evolution rocks!! Darwin is right!

Quote from: sntjohnny

So you think the universe has always existed in one form or another. Ie, you think its eternal.

I believe in something eternal, too.  I call this thing God.

So we both believe in the existence of eternal things.

You with me so far?

Yeah, I'm there. I call this eternal thing evolution. I can find all kinds of evidence supporting the theory of evolution. And the theories of electricity, gravity, and atoms. I believe the theory that the earth orbits the sun rather than vice versa (it is only a theory, after all).
Can you show me any practical evidence supporting your theory of divine creation? And the book of Genesis doesn't count!

 Yeah, it was a good rant... I give you an 8.5 overall
The reason I asked you in my other post whether or not you've done any personal research is that there is lots to support intelligent design(I go a step further & call it divine creation like you said) The evolutionists have had to tailor their theories because of the embarassing lack of evidence in the geological record. Paleontologist Niles Eldredge is quoted as having said, "...evolution always seems to be happening somewhere else..."
 Then there's the Big Bang . They don't like that one either... much too hard to explain how something that big just came out of nowhere, so guys like Stephen Hawking have to invent all kinds of theories about there being multiple universes using complex math, only(to his credti) he admitted he had to use imaginary numbers to make the equation work... still they can't explain how it happened or how matter got here in the first place, but just believe it's all random chance(for their sake, OK? Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!...)
  I'd like to touch on the subject of irreducible complexity, where certain things in biochemistry which were once thought to be simple structures, having simple processes(like a simple cell), are actually very complex. Darwin and his successors didn't know this, so this is where their whole starting point for the TOE came from. Now the evolutionists have had to scramble to attempt to explain how something like a bacterial flagullum (the little motor/ propeller that turns at high rpm and can stop in 1/4 revolution and reverse direction) could evolve all by itself.(Check out Broken's link, it's a prime example and read their theory of how it could happen, but keep that bottle of bourbon nearby.) This little contraption is really amazing, I'm a millwright by trade so I'm completely fascinated by it. I don't know of a motor made by humans that can perform like this thing can... we have servo motors that can turn at 10,000 rpm which is how fast  I understand a flagellum is able to turn, but to stop within 1/4 turn? I don't even think CNC spindles can do that ,they would probably tear themselves up. Yet evolutionists and naturalists want you to believe that these things designed themselves billions of years ago!
  The formation of these structures is complex in itself; proteins don't just fall together and make something that functions. (i.e.- If you have kids, how many times have you seen Lego stuctures assembling themselves on the floor?)
 We've all heard of DNA. It stores information for assembling proteins in a four-character digital code, represented by the letters A,G,C,and T. These are called bases or if you want to get technical, nucleotides. Different arrangements of these bases yields different sequences of amino acids. To build one protein you need 1,200 - 2,000 bases.
 Now we get to something called a Minimum Complexity Threshold; this is the minimum level of "folding" (I think it's called tertiary structure) required for a protein to perform a function. I believe at least 75 amino acids are required. As you may know, there are both right-handed and left-handed amino acids, just like the threads on a bolt. Only left-handed amino acids in a specific sequence will create a funtioning protein. They figured out the odds of a random formation , I don't know if the number even has a name, but it's a 10 with 125 zeroes. These are the kinds of odds you find in every area that intelligent design looks at , whether its biology or physics, or cosmology or the Big Bang happening all by itself or whatever. But the evolutionists tell you that their theory, even though they are always doctoring it, is "rock solid fact" that is "beyond questioning".If you ask me, to believe in something happening against these odds requires a whole lot more faith than it takes to believe in an Intelligent Designer, yet  Richard Dawkins ( a famous evolutionist) was quoted as saying that anyone who didn't believe in evolution should be locked up for being insane... Really!