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Author Topic: Just how smart are humpback whales?  (Read 3069 times)

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Ragnar

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Just how smart are humpback whales?
« on: June 26, 2006, 06:49:43 PM »

There was this story in the May 2006 issue of Reader's Digest about a humpback whale that got caught in some crab traps.

"Thick nylon crab ropes, called blue steel because of their strength, wound around the fin, through the whale's mouth and over its head. In some spots the lines sliced so deeply they disappeared into the animal's flesh.
Left like this, the whale would die."

The captain of a charter fishing boat put together a group of professional scuba divers to try to rescue the whale. Two divers went down first. They saw that the whale's "tail was wrapped with about 20 ropes connected to a dozen or so 100-pound crab traps. That's what was anchoring her in place. The weights dragged her tail down at a 90-degree angle to her body. From the tail, the ropes wound upward around her flipper. She was hogtied, and using every ounce of strength just to keep her blowhole above water."

Now here's where the cool part starts to come in. As the divers started cutting the ropes tying the whale's flipper, she stopped moving completely. "Even after they cut her flipper free, she remained still and calm."

The divers went back to talk to the crew, and one of them said, "I think she knows we're trying to help her."

When the two divers went back down, one went to work on the lines in the whale's mouth, and the other cut the ones from the tail. The one at the mouth rested his swim fins against the whale's flipper for leverage. He "floated eye-to-eye with the wounded animal. In utter stillness, with that eye as large as a human fist, the whale watched him as he tackled the lines."

While the two original divers continued cutting lines, two more divers joined them to pull pieces of rope out of the whale's mouth that had gotten tangled in the baleen (the hair-like bristles that a humpback has instead of teeth). The whale opened and closed her mouth, but otherwise remained motionless. The diver working at the tail, named Moskito, actually had to use his knife to pry some of the lines out of the whale's flesh. The entire rescue took over an hour to complete, and had to have caused the whale pain several times as the lines were cut away, but she didn't move the whole time.

When she was "finally liberated, the whale did a shallow dive. Moskito turned around: 'Where'd it go? Where'd it go?' he called.
The next thing he knew, she was coming up from below and straight at him. Hey, I just saved you, he thought, relief turning to fear as she rushed him.
The humpback stopped a foot from his chest. She nudged him, then turned away and swam in a circle around the divers. One by one she grazed by each of the four men."

"She swam with them for a good ten minutes."

Pretty amazing story.
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[batman

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rareairpug

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Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2006, 08:14:48 PM »

Don't believe it.  Probably exaggerated.
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Ragnar

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Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2006, 12:59:59 PM »

Quote from: rareairpug
Don't believe it.  Probably exaggerated.


Yet you believe the stories in the Bible. If that's not hypocrisy, I don't know what is. This story even had evidence that the Bible lacks - pictures :)
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[batman

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."  
- Ayn Rand

"Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself makes you fearless."
- Lao Tzu

"Your side hates our side because you think we think you're stupid. Our side hates your side because we think you're stupid."
- Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip

rareairpug

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Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2006, 03:06:17 PM »

Quote
Yet you believe the stories in the Bible. If that's not hypocrisy, I don't know what is. This story even had evidence that the Bible lacks - pictures :)


You beat me to the punch. :)

I have a Bible with pictures...I'll send it to you and then you can convert, ok?
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Ragnar

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Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2006, 08:53:14 AM »

Quote from: rareairpug
Quote
Yet you believe the stories in the Bible. If that's not hypocrisy, I don't know what is. This story even had evidence that the Bible lacks - pictures :)


You beat me to the punch. :)

I have a Bible with pictures...I'll send it to you and then you can convert, ok?


Correction, photographs of the whale and the crew who saved her. Does your Bible have any photographs of Jesus on the cross? Is it possible that the account was exaggerated? Sure. A scientist with the crew reported seeing the whale circling, but she attributed the behavior to the whale just getting its strength back before swimming away, rather than to purposefully swimming with the people who just saved her. Still, the whale brushed against the people without hurting them. The people could have just gotten lucky, but at the very least it suggests the whale knew that swimming into the divers could hurt them.

The point is it is a sign of intelligence, meaning perhaps humans aren't all that unique. There is more evidence that some animals have intelligence than there is for any Bible story.
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[batman

"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."  
- Ayn Rand

"Mastering others is strength. Mastering yourself makes you fearless."
- Lao Tzu

"Your side hates our side because you think we think you're stupid. Our side hates your side because we think you're stupid."
- Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip

rareairpug

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Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2006, 03:13:16 PM »

Quote
Correction, photographs of the whale and the crew who saved her. Does your Bible have any photographs of Jesus on the cross? Is it possible that the account was exaggerated? Sure. A scientist with the crew reported seeing the whale circling, but she attributed the behavior to the whale just getting its strength back before swimming away, rather than to purposefully swimming with the people who just saved her. Still, the whale brushed against the people without hurting them. The people could have just gotten lucky, but at the very least it suggests the whale knew that swimming into the divers could hurt them.

The point is it is a sign of intelligence, meaning perhaps humans aren't all that unique. There is more evidence that some animals have intelligence than there is for any Bible story.


Eh, those photos of your whale were probably doctored.  Anyone could whip up a picture of themselves superimposed with a whale.  That doesn't prove anything.  Incidentally, you accept the word of Reader's Digest because......well, why do you accept the word of Reader's Digest?  If you read in the Bible that a man saw an angel, you'd disregard it as fabricated.  Why aren't you more skeptical of this "amazing" (your word) story?  Doesn't it run contrary to your experience and human experience in general?
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Zagzagel

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Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2006, 12:58:30 AM »

I heard a story once... about a man being swallowed by a whale and saving a place called Nineveh.

Nice try.
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Zagzagel

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Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2006, 01:00:06 AM »

TAH

How old are you now?
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zjohnso2

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Re: Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2007, 10:55:24 PM »

wow.  rareinpug continues to amaze me.  of course things could be doctored.  the entire bible could have been doctored.  but why?  why would someone doctor photos to make whales seem friendly and intelligent?
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rareairpug

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Re: Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2007, 08:13:11 PM »

It was the PETA people.  They want you to think that animals are highly intelligent.


Making up motivations is easy.  You could come up with many others I am sure.  But the question was why Ragnar blindly believes an "amazing" story in Reader's Digest, but won't give an amazing story in the Bible a second glance.
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zjohnso2

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Re: Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2007, 12:55:28 PM »

Maybe because the story is believable.  We all know whales swim, and humans swim.  If Reader's Digest had an unbelievable story, something that we have never seen or could even imagine, like a man claiming he ran around the world in less than 30 seconds, I expect that you, Ragnar, and I would all be skeptical.  And why doubt the validity of Reader's Digest?  It isn't critical to our understanding of the nature of ourselves and the universe.  Maybe Ragnar has considered the bible, but eventually decided to reject it.  You know, there are numerous other holy books, each of which claim to be the perfect word of God.  Even if you assume that one of these books WAS written by God, no matter which one you choose, probability says that you're probably wrong.  I think we both know you would be saying the same thing about the Koran if you had been raised in the Middle East.  Or you possibly would have already flown a plane into one of our buildings thinking that you would be rewarded with eternal paradise.  If you had been born in ancient Greece, you would be one of the people who everyone smiles at today for worshipping Zeus, etc. etc. etc.
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rareairpug

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Re: Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2007, 09:22:14 PM »

Quote
Maybe because the story is believable.  We all know whales swim, and humans swim.  If Reader's Digest had an unbelievable story, something that we have never seen or could even imagine, like a man claiming he ran around the world in less than 30 seconds, I expect that you, Ragnar, and I would all be skeptical.

Pshhh.  Who decides what is believable?  Ragnar himself said the story was "amazing."  Even he recognized that this event was abnormal...otherwise I doubt he would have mentioned it. 

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And why doubt the validity of Reader's Digest?  It isn't critical to our understanding of the nature of ourselves and the universe.

So do you automatically accept everything that you don't consider "critical to our understanding of the nature of ourselves and the universe."  How do you determine what is critical anyways?

Quote
Maybe Ragnar has considered the bible, but eventually decided to reject it.

That was what I was trying to get at  :wink:  I thought maybe he could elaborate on his methods of determining what is truthful and what isn't.  Maybe you will share yours?

Quote
You know, there are numerous other holy books, each of which claim to be the perfect word of God.  Even if you assume that one of these books WAS written by God, no matter which one you choose, probability says that you're probably wrong.

But don't you think there are other ways of ascertaining which book is trustworthy?

Quote
I think we both know you would be saying the same thing about the Koran if you had been raised in the Middle East.  Or you possibly would have already flown a plane into one of our buildings thinking that you would be rewarded with eternal paradise.  If you had been born in ancient Greece, you would be one of the people who everyone smiles at today for worshipping Zeus, etc. etc. etc.

It is possible, although I'd like to think that I would examine the truthfulness of whatever I believe in.  What was it Socrates said..."An unexamined life..."
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zjohnso2

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Re: Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2007, 12:59:48 PM »

An amazing story doesn't mean it's unbelievable.  Olympians break world records all the time.  These are amazing feats, but still well within the realm of believability (although it seems that your realm of believability is much larger than my own).  No, I don't accept anything that's not critical to an understanding of myself or the universe, but I usually evaluate the story and it's credibility.  Suggesting that this story is a fabrication by PETA to make animals seem more intelligent is ridiculous.  They don't need to prove this.  There are plenty of studies demonstrating animal intelligence.   
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zjohnso2

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Re: Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2007, 04:05:21 PM »

e.g. http://youtube.com/watch?v=TtmLVP0HvDg

let me guess, this video has been doctored by PETA...
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rareairpug

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Re: Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2007, 11:35:10 AM »

Quote
An amazing story doesn't mean it's unbelievable.  Olympians break world records all the time.  These are amazing feats, but still well within the realm of believability (although it seems that your realm of believability is much larger than my own).

But here again, we have the problem of deciding what is believable and what is not.  You may find a story believable which I consider unbelievable or vice versa.  So, you've only succeeded in making a subjective judgement about an event which has no real bearing on its truthfulness.

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No, I don't accept anything that's not critical to an understanding of myself or the universe, but I usually evaluate the story and it's credibility.

Then how have you evaluated the credibility of Reader's Digest and this particular story? 

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Suggesting that this story is a fabrication by PETA to make animals seem more intelligent is ridiculous.

Perhaps. How many false stories have been reported by major news outlets recently?  Jayson Blair, Dan Rather, etc al. Are fabrications really so rare? 

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They don't need to prove this.

Apparently not to you.  You appear far less skeptical than I.  :wink:

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There are plenty of studies demonstrating animal intelligence.

Sure, but not this sort of animal behavior.  The whole reason that the story got written up in Reader's Digest at all was because it was an abnormal event.  Based on our experience, animals just don't normally behave in this way.
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zjohnso2

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Re: Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2007, 07:41:14 PM »

altruism is seen in all sorts of animals.  did you like the crow video?  i've also seen a video of a bird catching fish by throwing in bait and waiting.  d--n, God made them animals so smart. 
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rareairpug

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Re: Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2007, 10:20:27 PM »

Are you conceeding that you have no way of knowing which stories are truthful and which are not apart from your subjective opinion?
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zjohnso2

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Re: Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2007, 11:59:37 PM »

no.  i'm not.  i'm saying that you can be certain beyond a reasonable doubt which stories are true and which are not by simple investigation.  if you really doubt that story, i'm sure you can call reader's digest, get ACTUAL sources, ACTUAL photos, ACTUAL everything you want.  unless of course, it's all one big PETA conspiracy!  MWUHAHAHAHAHA
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rareairpug

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Re: Just how smart are humpback whales?
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2007, 09:57:52 PM »

And have you investigated this story before believing it?  If not, why not?
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