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SirGuilesdragon

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Semantics in Science?
« on: August 09, 2008, 10:33:57 PM »

Something I thought I should bring up is going to seem odd. This is especially the case in a science section; yet it is vital to the debate. This is the difference between how, and why. I am working on becoming a Chemist, and this is something I have noticed. People expect science to give them a why answer to a how question, and also are content with a how answer from a why question. This is not merely a semantical difference. This leads to an ultimate misunderstanding involving the entire evolution debate. This is caused by science's inability to answer any questions but how, what, where, and sometimes when. Science can never actually answer why. Why stands alone as the metaphysical question that everyone wants answered, and no one can answer.

For instance, try to answer the question "Why is there life?". I have asked this question often, and I got one honest, why, answer.  The myriads of detailed explanations for amino acids, proteins, DNA, speciation etc, were old news to me, I have taken those classes. Those answers are merely telling me how amino acids become proteins, how Deoxyribonucleic Acid stores traits, how those traits can vary in a population and, over time, change one finch into a similar, yet genetically distinct, finch. None of these actually answered the real question: Why.

The reason science cannot answer why is that science is based on empirical, repeatable observations, and why requires revelation. But these days, people do not believe in revelation, and so they swallow the misguided answers the scientists give.

Evolution is simply an attempt of science to answer a why question. It cannot do so.
They foolishly try to mask the impossibility of their being able to answer why by adding billions of years to distract everyone from the truth. That is, the Why still stands, calling for for its answer, and they cannot give it.

So I pose to you the question I have asked many at school. Why is there life: not how, or what, or where, but why?
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2008, 09:22:40 AM »

Welcome, SirGuiles.  Excellent first post.
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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2008, 03:47:38 PM »

  Most modern histories of mankind begin with the word evolution, and with a rather wordy exposition of evolution, for much the same reason that operated in this case.  There is something slow and gradual about the word and even about the idea.  As a matter of fact, it is not, touching these primary things, a very practical word or a very profitable idea.  Nobody can imagine how nothing could turn into something.  Nobody can get an inch nearer to it by explaining how something could turn into something else.  It is really far more logical to start by saying 'In the beginning God created heaven and earth' even if you only mean 'In the beginning some unthinkable power began some unthinkable process.'  For God is by its nature a name of mystery, and nobody ever supposed that man could imagine how a world was created any more than he could create one.  But evolution really is mistaken for explanation.  It has the fatal quality of leaving on many minds the impression that they do understand it and everything else' just as many of them live under a sort of illusion that they have read the Origin of Species.

  But this notion of something smooth and slow, like the ascent of a slope, is a great part of the illusion.  It is an illogicality as well as an illusion, for slowness has really nothing to do with the question.  An event is not any more intrinsically intelligible or unintelligible begcause of the pace at which it moves.  For a man who does not believe in a miracle, a slow miracle would be just as incredible as a swift one.  The Greek witch may have turned sailors to swine with a stroke of the wand.  But to see a naval gentlemen of our acquaintance looking a little more like a pig every day, till he ended with four trotters and a curly tail, would not be anymore soothing.  It might be rather more creepy and uncanny.  The medieval wizard may have flown through the air from the top of a tower; but to see an old gentle man walking through the air, in  leisurely and lounging manner, would still seem to call for some explanation.  Yet there runs through all the rationalistic treatment of history this curious and confused idea that difficulty is avoided, or even mystery eliminated, by dwelling on mere delay or on something dilatory in the process of things.  There will be something to be said upon particular examples elsewhere the question here is the false atmosphere of facility and ease given by the mere suggestion of going slow; the sort of comfort that might be given to a nervous old woman travelling for the first time in a motorcar.

  Mr. H.G. Wells has confessed to being a prophet; and in this matter he was a prophet at his own expense.  It is curious that his first fairy tail was a complete answer to his last book of history.  The Time Machine destroyed in advance all comfortable conclusions founded on the mere relativity of time.  In that sublime nightmare the hero saw trees shoot up like green rockets, and vegetation spread visibly like a green conflagration, or the sun shoot across the sky from east to west with the swiftness of a meteor.  Yet in his sense thse things were quite as natural when the went swiftly; and in our sense they are quite as supernatural when the go slowly.  The ultimate question is why they go at all, and anybody who really understands that question will know that it always has been and always will be a religious question; or at any rate a philosophical or metaphysical qusestion.  And most certianly he will not think the question answered by some substitution of gradual for abrupt change; or, in other words, by a merely relative question of the same story being spunout or rattled rapidly through, as can be done with any story at a cinema by turning a handle

-G.K. Chesterton
The Everlasting Man copyright 1925
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 09:56:16 PM by David »
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2008, 04:47:30 PM »

Oooooh, a Chesterton quote as a follow up!  This has all the marks of a great thread in the making!
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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2008, 08:50:26 PM »

Hi, SirGuiles.  I'm not the Christian cheerleadinging section, so I'll be providing some substantive criticism.  [smile

Something I thought I should bring up is going to seem odd. This is especially the case in a science section; yet it is vital to the debate. This is the difference between how, and why. I am working on becoming a Chemist, and this is something I have noticed. People expect science to give them a why answer to a how question, and also are content with a how answer from a why question...

I wish that you had given a concrete example here, because I think that science is all about "why" answers.  The "why" question is supposed to elicit causes or reasons, and science is all about explaining causes and reasons, so I don't share your opinion that science is deficient in this department.

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This is not merely a semantical difference. This leads to an ultimate misunderstanding involving the entire evolution debate. This is caused by science's inability to answer any questions but how, what, where, and sometimes when. Science can never actually answer why. Why stands alone as the metaphysical question that everyone wants answered, and no one can answer.

Not really.  "How" elicits the manner in which something happens.  "Why" elicits the theory.  Do you not understand what a scientific theory is?

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For instance, try to answer the question "Why is there life?". I have asked this question often, and I got one honest, why, answer.  The myriads of detailed explanations for amino acids, proteins, DNA, speciation etc, were old news to me, I have taken those classes. Those answers are merely telling me how amino acids become proteins, how Deoxyribonucleic Acid stores traits, how those traits can vary in a population and, over time, change one finch into a similar, yet genetically distinct, finch. None of these actually answered the real question: Why.

Well, science does not answer all questions, nor does it pretend to provide a definitive and final answer to all questions.  If that is what you seek, then you will find religion more attractive, because religious doctrines do provide final answers, even if they don't happen to be true.

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The reason science cannot answer why is that science is based on empirical, repeatable observations, and why requires revelation. But these days, people do not believe in revelation, and so they swallow the misguided answers the scientists give.

Lots of people--too many, in fact--accept answers presented to them as divine revelation.  It is true that science does not provide definitive once-and-for-all answers, but it does provide an evaluation metric for determining which of all available answers is the most likely.  If you just have to know the once and for-all-time correct definitive answer, then maybe you would prefer religion.  Just be sure you pick the one that has the once-and-for-all true answer.  ;)

Quote
Evolution is simply an attempt of science to answer a why question. It cannot do so.
They foolishly try to mask the impossibility of their being able to answer why by adding billions of years to distract everyone from the truth. That is, the Why still stands, calling for for its answer, and they cannot give it.

Gosh, I have to say that this is not a very impressive paragraph.  You don't really explain how you think evolution fails to answer the "why" question.  It certainly does explain why species have evolved in the way that they have.  The answer is that one needs to look at the environmental circumstances that favor some survival traits over others.  I think that evolution theory has done a rather spectacular job of explaining why some evolutionary changes have survived and others have not.

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So I pose to you the question I have asked many at school. Why is there life: not how, or what, or where, but why?

Well, science hasn't really gotten through the "how" part of the question, so it is a bit premature to be demanding to know the "why".  Science cannot promise to explain everything in the short geologic slice of time that human beings have and will continue to be extant.  But it is possible to make a very high level statement about why there is life.  The universe is full of self-replicating physical processes.  Life appears to be the premier example of self-replication in the domain of physical processes.  So I would say that the general answer to "why" is that life is better than other self-replicating processes at perpetuating itself.  Richard Dawkins goes into much more detail on this subject in his celebrated work, The Blind Watchmaker
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David

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2008, 09:53:44 PM »

"Oooooh, a Chesterton quote as a follow up!  This has all the marks of a great thread in the making!"

Yeah, its funny how I happened to have this book out of the library while Sirguile posts his first thread.  Immediately the few paragraphs posted came to my mind, especially the last few sentences. 

Course he was talking about the history of paganism but it feels so good when separate people in different times have the same insights. [cool
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SirGuilesdragon

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2008, 10:10:18 PM »

Its always more fun when someone disagrees. It gives me a chance to expand on my idea.

Why can be asked in two ways. One of those ways you discuss. That is, Why does this   wing create lift? This question is simply answered through Bernoulli's principal of a fluid in motion. However, this question can also be asked, How does this wing produce lift? which results in the same answer.

However, Why can also ask, Why am I alive? This is not asking for a mere theory. One could point to the biology, the anatomy, the biochemistry, the physical chemistry, that makes it so that 'I' can be alive. But science cannot tell me why those things work together to result in 'me'

You are doing exactly what I said that people do. You are ignoring the fact that even when science can answer, exactly, how, it is not actually answering why.

A scientific theory is an explanation of some part of the world we live in. It is characterized by, the observability of the phenomenon, the repeatability of the experiments that support the theory, and the ability to change or discard that theory when new evidence turns up. At least, that is the textbook definition of theory, from your comment it seems to me that perhaps you are using a different one.

(I would use that fancy quote thing, but I cant figure it out, so here is a normal quote... sorry.)

"Well, science does not answer all questions, nor does it pretend to provide a definitive and final answer to all questions.  If that is what you seek, then you will find religion more attractive, because religious doctrines do provide final answers, even if they don't happen to be true."

Perhaps science does not. I also don't think it does. My point was that many people treat it as though it was automatically more reliable than revelation simply because someone with Ph. D. after their name, in a white lab coat told them that this is 'scientifically supported'. This was my point, that this is hocus. I mean, I have a lab coat, and I have a creationist professor...... we could rig something....

As to evolution failing to answer the why question: Why is asking for a final cause. why is not content with explanations of mechanics, because behind each explanation of mechanics comes another why, always pushing one further back into an infinite series. That is the reason science cannot answer this kind of 'why'.
 
(another lame quote)
"Well, science hasn't really gotten through the "how" part of the question, so it is a bit premature to be demanding to know the "why".  Science cannot promise to explain everything in the short geologic slice of time that human beings have and will continue to be extant.  But it is possible to make a very high level statement about why there is life.  The universe is full of self-replicating physical processes.  Life appears to be the premier example of self-replication in the domain of physical processes.  So I would say that the general answer to "why" is that life is better than other self-replicating processes at perpetuating itself.  Richard Dawkins goes into much more detail on this subject in his celebrated work, The Blind Watchmaker."

You are avoiding the question. Do you know how science is done? Science is all about making straight lines out of your data, and either extrapolation or interpolating it. In Analytical Chemistry, we would do this, and then predict something like the concentration of acids or some such. However, our data was considered miserably bad if our conclusion was more than a fraction away from our standard line. This is akin to the observations of all mankind, stacked up against the age that evolution demands, and extrapolating to a wildly inaccurate point in time where macro evolution is possible.

By the way, lets leave Divine Revelation out of this debate, you have drug it in where it doesn't belong, simply to distract us. We had been talking about the incompetence of science in important 'why' questions. As it seems that you could not make any good arguments for the competence of science to speak to these matters, perhaps you should consider the explanations given by Revelation. Salvation is a terribly important matter: and as you say, science hasn't even worked out the smallest particle of 'how' we got here, can you really expect it to answer what happens after death?
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Saint Bernard of Clairvaux

David

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2008, 10:20:44 PM »

"Hi, SirGuiles.  I'm not the Christian cheerleadinging section, so I'll be providing some substantive criticism. [smile"

Yes, we know you get your undies in a bunch when christians agree.

"So I would say that the general answer to "why" is that life is better than other self-replicating processes at perpetuating itself. "

 [athiestblatheragain  I went ahead and bolded the most relevant parts of the Chesterton quote for you.  It was alot to read.
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2008, 10:23:54 PM »

Quote
A scientific theory is an explanation of some part of the world we live in. It is characterized by, the observability of the phenomenon, the repeatability of the experiments that support the theory, and the ability to change or discard that theory when new evidence turns up. At least, that is the textbook definition of theory, from your comment it seems to me that perhaps you are using a different one.

heh yea he is using a different one.  I'm afraid the one he's using is the most common one employed in the atheistic scientific community though, so get used to it.

The notion that 'observability' and 'repeatability' are key elements to what makes something 'science' has been repeatedly bashed on this forum and elsewhere.  In fact, on TalkOrigins (a pro-Evolution site) there is even an article or two that concludes that science is what scientists do.  Seriously.  None of that observational mumbo jumbo.

Anyway about quotes... highlight what you want and then click the talk bubble.  You will see your quotation surrounded by |quote] [quote| where the | are replaced with [ and ] respectively.  Also, for long quotes I'll sometimes snip stuff out... like...

Quote
A scientific theory is an explanation of some part of the world we live in. It is characterized by, ... At least, that is the textbook definition of theory, from your comment it seems to me that perhaps you are using a different one.
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SirGuilesdragon

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2008, 10:36:39 PM »

I knew he was using a different definition. That is something I cannot allow, it is bad science and is responsible for the propagation of many preconceived notions. It should be pointed out at every turn that atheists must change the definitions of word to even stand a chance: Like why, like theory, like science, etc. If atheists must change these meaning, they must be made to do so out in the open, where everyone can see and know, that the meanings have changed. This is where the debate devolves into semantics, which, unlike people usually think, is a good thing. 

Thanks for the quote help. I'll remember it. (I hope)
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Saint Bernard of Clairvaux

JustLiz

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2008, 08:38:42 AM »

Somebody please correct me if I
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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2008, 01:30:55 PM »

Why can be asked in two ways. One of those ways you discuss. That is, Why does this   wing create lift? This question is simply answered through Bernoulli's principal of a fluid in motion. However, this question can also be asked, How does this wing produce lift? which results in the same answer.

I think that you are getting yourself tangled up in the subtle overlap between "why" and "how" questions.  There are many ways to answer so-called "wh-" questions (how, when, why, where, what, which), and context is often necessary to understand how to answer appropriately.  So scientific questions like "why does X have property Y?" are often paraphrasable as "how did X come to have property Y?".  But the question takes on a different significance when one presupposes a different context.  That is why the joke question "Why did the chicken cross the road?" produces amusement.  It is a play on the ambiguity of context.  One looks for a more profound answer--"to get food" or "to avoid a predator"--but the jokester makes it clear that the vagueness of the context licenses a trick response.  Even a simple question like "Why did I get cancer?" can elicit a variety of responses:  "because I smoked", "because my genome makes me more susceptible to cancer", "because my immune system was too weak to fight cancer off", etc.  So, if you are going to discuss the semantics of "how" and "why", you need to think carefully about the contextual presuppositions that guide and shape the answers.  Remember that when you ask why there is life.  There is never just one possible answer.

Quote
However, Why can also ask, Why am I alive? This is not asking for a mere theory. One could point to the biology, the anatomy, the biochemistry, the physical chemistry, that makes it so that 'I' can be alive. But science cannot tell me why those things work together to result in 'me'

On some levels, the scientific method can answer that question.  The real issue here is what kind of answers you expect.  It is certainly possible to ask questions that have no answer.  Consider, for example, questions loaded with presuppositions that fail:  "Why has Russia invaded Armenia?"  The question cannot be answered sensibly because it fails on the presupposition that Russia has invaded Armenia.  One can only sensibly ask why Russia has invaded the countries it has invaded.  If makes sense to ask what the purpose of football is, because football has a purpose.  It is not so clear that one can ask what the purpose of life is.

Quote
A scientific theory is an explanation of some part of the world we live in. It is characterized by, the observability of the phenomenon, the repeatability of the experiments that support the theory, and the ability to change or discard that theory when new evidence turns up. At least, that is the textbook definition of theory, from your comment it seems to me that perhaps you are using a different one.

I consider that a very poor definition of a theory.  A theory is a collection of assertions that generate predictions about some natural phenomena.  Those predictions allow the theory to be tested against its predictions.  Experimentation is one method of testing predictions, although not all tests can be controled.  Some rely just on making predictions about what one will observe in nature, e.g. Einstein's prediction that Mercury would appear to be outside its expected location during a solar eclipse.  His theory predicted that light could be affected by gravity, and that led to the prediction.

Quote
"Well, science does not answer all questions, nor does it pretend to provide a definitive and final answer to all questions.  If that is what you seek, then you will find religion more attractive, because religious doctrines do provide final answers, even if they don't happen to be true."

Perhaps science does not. I also don't think it does. My point was that many people treat it as though it was automatically more reliable than revelation simply because someone with Ph. D. after their name, in a white lab coat told them that this is 'scientifically supported'. This was my point, that this is hocus. I mean, I have a lab coat, and I have a creationist professor...... we could rig something....

I disagree.  People treat science as more reliable because it has been shown to be more reliable than religion in explaining natural phenomena.  When it has come into conflict with religion, it has almost always prevailed, an excellent case in point being its explanation of the origin of species.  Revelation tells us what we can imagine.  Science tells us what we can discover.

Quote
As to evolution failing to answer the why question: Why is asking for a final cause. why is not content with explanations of mechanics, because behind each explanation of mechanics comes another why, always pushing one further back into an infinite series. That is the reason science cannot answer this kind of 'why'.

Religion is not any better at solving infinite regress as the "turtles all the way down" anecdote illustrates.  How did the physical reality come into existence?  God created it.  How did God come into existence?  We pretend that it isn't sensible to ask the latter question, only the former one.  To ask the former question, however, one must presuppose that physical reality did come into existence.

Quote
You are avoiding the question. Do you know how science is done? Science is all about making straight lines out of your data, and either extrapolation or interpolating it. In Analytical Chemistry, we would do this, and then predict something like the concentration of acids or some such. However, our data was considered miserably bad if our conclusion was more than a fraction away from our standard line. This is akin to the observations of all mankind, stacked up against the age that evolution demands, and extrapolating to a wildly inaccurate point in time where macro evolution is possible.

I am beginning to doubt that you have understood how science works.  It does not pretend to provide ultimate answers, only answers that make sense to our experiences.  As our experience grows, new questions arise.  Theories don't just account for data.  They define what counts as data.  Fossils of dinosaurs once proved the historical existence of dragons.  Now they prove the historical existence of dinosaurs, and that fits well with a wide range of other information we now have about the world.  The dragon theory doesn't fit quite so well anymore, although it is still worth entertaining, if only to help us see that the dinosaur theory is a better explanation.  So-called "macroevolution" (really, just the idea that evolution causes speciation over time) is no longer doubted by any serious scientist precisely because it is corroborated by so much else that we have come to learn about the world.  Scientific theories are pieces in a puzzle.  You won't understand their usefulness if all you want to do is focus attention on the puzzle piece and ignore the rest of the puzzle.

Quote
By the way, lets leave Divine Revelation out of this debate, you have drug it in where it doesn't belong, simply to distract us...

I have not "drug it in".  You are posting in a forum entitled "Science and Religion".  Revelation remains relevant to the debate.  It is a direct competitor to science as a method of discovering knowledge.

Quote
...We had been talking about the incompetence of science in important 'why' questions. As it seems that you could not make any good arguments for the competence of science to speak to these matters, perhaps you should consider the explanations given by Revelation. Salvation is a terribly important matter: and as you say, science hasn't even worked out the smallest particle of 'how' we got here, can you really expect it to answer what happens after death?

You chide me for mentioning revelation in one breath, but you feel free to go with it in the next.  These reversals threaten to give us mental whiplash.  [smile 

I have not said that science hasn't (or cannot) work out how we got here.  It has actually done a superior job to religion, because much of the Christian world has come to endorse evolution, not least of which is the Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination.  They've come a long way since they burned Copernicus's books and threatened Galileo with torture.

As for what happens after death, science has done a phenomenal job in tying all mental function to physical phenomena in living brains.  It seems most reasonable to conclude that all mental function ceases after the destruction of the physical brain.  Religion, of course, has offered a different opinion. 
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Copernicus

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2008, 02:00:38 PM »

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2008, 02:50:34 PM »

My point was that asking why the universe was created in the context of "What is the deeper meaning and purpose of the universe?" implies motive which implies forethought which implies deity.  The question doesn't even make sense unless someone has a belief in a Creator.  (Am I right on that?)

Saying what I did about the cosmos aligning that day was somewhat sarcastic.  (I know, that's a shock coming from me.)   [howumakemefeel
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Copernicus

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2008, 05:19:07 PM »

My point was that asking why the universe was created in the context of "What is the deeper meaning and purpose of the universe?" implies motive which implies forethought which implies deity.  The question doesn't even make sense unless someone has a belief in a Creator.  (Am I right on that?)

Yes, I would agree with that.  To ask what purpose the universe has begs the question of whether it has a purpose in the first place.  The same is true of asking why we are here.  It presupposes that we are here for a purpose.  When believers ask me to answer that question, I often ask them why God exists, which too often strikes them as an absurd question.  God does not need a purpose to exist.  The point is that it makes no more sense to ask why people exist.  If there has to be a ground of being, then why make up entities to serve that purpose when, in fact, physical existence itself can serve that purpose?
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End Bringer

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2008, 08:22:58 PM »

Yes, I would agree with that.  To ask what purpose the universe has begs the question of whether it has a purpose in the first place.  The same is true of asking why we are here.  It presupposes that we are here for a purpose.  When believers ask me to answer that question, I often ask them why God exists, which too often strikes them as an absurd question.  God does not need a purpose to exist.  The point is that it makes no more sense to ask why people exist.  If there has to be a ground of being, then why make up entities to serve that purpose when, in fact, physical existence itself can serve that purpose?

Because the difference between Creator and created is as wide as the world, and we obviously fall in the latter catagory (even belief in evolution acknowledges this). First causation has always been a befuddlement to atheism, even in your "God is an invention" speculation as you can't provide evidence of exactly who or why someone 'invented' God. But then atheism is showing more and more that it's grounding is more on speculation than evidence and logic.
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Copernicus

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2008, 11:09:30 PM »

Because the difference between Creator and created is as wide as the world, and we obviously fall in the latter catagory (even belief in evolution acknowledges this)...

Really?  That's news to me.  Evolution makes no reference whatsoever to a "creator".

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...First causation has always been a befuddlement to atheism, even in your "God is an invention" speculation as you can't provide evidence of exactly who or why someone 'invented' God. But then atheism is showing more and more that it's grounding is more on speculation than evidence and logic.

First causation is no more a befuddlement to naturalists than supernaturalists.  All supernturalism does is move the question back a notch.  If you can stop asking the question at God, then you can stop asking it at what God allegedly created.  The only reason that you don't stop there is that you've already decided what you desire to believe, and you have no intention of letting Occam's Razor override that desire or influence your thinking.
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David

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2008, 01:44:00 PM »

The universe gives the impression it has been designed, though.
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Copernicus

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2008, 02:47:05 PM »

The universe gives the impression it has been designed, though.

It appears to have given that impression unintentionally, David.
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End Bringer

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Re: Semantics in Science?
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2008, 04:50:19 PM »

Because the difference between Creator and created is as wide as the world, and we obviously fall in the latter catagory (even belief in evolution acknowledges this)...

Really?  That's news to me.  Evolution makes no reference whatsoever to a "creator".

Didn't take my advise on refreshing yourself with basic reading skills, I see. As my reference was obviously for the latter catagory of "created" as evolution is all about explaining how we were created.

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First causation is no more a befuddlement to naturalists than supernaturalists.  All supernturalism does is move the question back a notch.  If you can stop asking the question at God, then you can stop asking it at what God allegedly created.  The only reason that you don't stop there is that you've already decided what you desire to believe, and you have no intention of letting Occam's Razor override that desire or influence your thinking.

Hahahahaha! Oh please. As I said in the other thread if you are following Occam's Razor then evolution can't be true based on it's highly convolted, numerous, and improbable series of random events. That there is a Designer when we see design threw out the universe is indeed far simpler and fitting than numerous unrelated chances making it all look designed.

And your criticism applies more to naturalism than supernaturalism. Indeed it looks like you took a fairly common criticism on naturalism and just switched the words around. The Big Bang is allegedly the source of all natural law. Therefore it can not have been caused by it. Asking what came before that is not only natural (pun totally intended), but justified as out of nothing nothing comes is the logical dictum. Something must have caused the "Big Bang", and it must be without it's own cause. And since naturalism can not have caused where no-naturalism existed, the conclusion of God as the uncaused-Causer is the only rational and sane explanation. Not that I have much confidence in you being in your right mind with arguements like yours Cop.  :wink:
« Last Edit: August 14, 2008, 05:03:58 PM by End Bringer »
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