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Author Topic: Argument from sincerity  (Read 6772 times)

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Anthony Horvath

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Re: Argument from sincerity
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2008, 10:21:57 PM »

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Anthony Horvath

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Re: Argument from sincerity
« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2008, 09:41:56 AM »

Well, I know you've been back here.  It is hard not to read into such an extended silence after you were on the warpath for so long.  Are you so stubborn that you can't admit that responding to my initial substantive post with some silly comment suggesting that I had any thought of putting Craig in the Mormon comment was completely uncalled for?  Can you at least see how that appeared to be nothing more (especially as the conversation developed) as a bait and switch?  Your ONLY source had been Craig, but you failed to note that.

And speaking of stubbornness, with your insults about me not taking a logic class one would think that your view is that unless one is formally educated in something they can't follow along.  Well, I admitted that I hadn't had a formal logic class.  How many have?  But will you admit finally that you have never taken a class on Christianity?  Comparative religion doesn't count.  Will you admit that your exclusive source on what Christians believe comes from your interpretation of Craig and that you have never invested much time reading the Bible for yourself?

After all this time to prepare for it, will you now accept the challenge?

Now, you would admit that just because I haven't had a logic class and as keen an awareness in the technical jargon as a person who is currently pursuing his masters in it it doesn't follow that I am incapable of sizing up an argument.  I think you would admit this... though granted you pin an awful lot on it... I would likewise admit that it is possible to know a bit of theology without taking theology classes, though not if you haven't read the Bible. 

Still, it is possible without a class.  So, why not just come clean?  You've gotten almost everything you demanded in this thread and that's quite a bit seeing as most of your posts consists of demands.

I still have a substantive reply to your initial argument that you have yet to reply to in good faith.
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Anthony Horvath

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Re: Argument from sincerity
« Reply #62 on: February 20, 2008, 09:57:47 AM »

At the risk of sidetracking you, it so happens that I picked up one of Craig's books on the resurrection last week and was surprised to read what sounded like his views on 'experiential.'  (I still haven't looked at the Craig link you gave me.  I've relied only on your quotations).

From the preface I read:
Quote
In point of fact we can know that Jesus rose from the dead wholly apart from a consideration of the historical evidence.  The simplest Christian, who has neither the opportunity nor wherewithal to conduct a historical investigation of Jesus' resurrection, can know with assurance that Jesus is risen because God's Spirit bears unmistakable witness to him that it is so.  And any non-Christian who is truly seeking to know the truth about God and life can also be sure that Jesus is risen because God's Spirit will lead him to a personal relationship with the risen Lord.  Thus, there are really two avenues to a knowledge of the fact of the resurrection:  the avenue of the Spirit and the avenue of historical inquiry.  The former provides a spiritual certainity of the resurrection, whereas the latter provides a rational certainty of the resurrection.  Ideally these ought to coincide, the Spirit working through the rational power of the evidence and the evidence undergirding the witness of the Spirit.  But even if the historical avenue proved inaccessible, the avenue of the Spirit to a knowledge of the resurrection would remain open and independent. [Preface to The Son Rises]

Now, the problem is that you have distilled this into Craig asserting that 'you should pray.'  This is to reduce God to a cosmic vending machine.  No doubt there are Christians who act like that and no doubt there are a host of atheists that will only believe in God if they receive from him exactly what they demand of him.  I have underlined an important component to Craig's argument- the personal relationship. 

Craig may very well suggest prayer, but he will also take into consideration that what is at stake is a relationship.  In a relationship, making strident demands is no way to get what you want.  This is especially the case when the object of the relationship is vastly superior to the other.  The President of the United States is not going to give you an audience just because you demand he do so.  Moreover, even if you are granted the audience you will likely have to undergo background checks, leave your weapon at home, and give no indication that if you showed up in the Oval office you were just going to spit on him.  But God is much more superior than even the President.

I have a hunch- and of course, I'm not a Craig scholar and expert like you are- that if you were going to ask Craig precisely how you should invite the Spirit to assure you of the resurrection (ie, the resurrection, not God's existence- as if that's all God cares about!) he may eventually, in fact, it is safe to say he certainly would, suggest prayer.  But in the lead up to that I think he would talk about proper expectations, proper approach- ie, certain humility- a certain willingness to be teachable, etc.

If you prayed to God for proof of his existence and he said "Here I am, the Christian God" and you said "I hate you, Christian God, look at all of the abuses you've done!" trust me, you're in a worse spot then you were then if God hadn't answered the prayer at all.  Job's response was better (though he didn't contest God's existence).
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