At what point is your will not free?

When I cannot disagree with you.  But I can.  :)

Very good dotard.

Now the question is: Is there any external compulsion from God in saving us? If there is any, then man has no free will in regards to salvation.

Tony, is any choice we make ever free from external compulsion?  After all, we do not have control over the conditions we were born into, and it would seem that those external factors tend to determine the internal compulsions that govern our choices.  In any case, I would agree with you that we have no choice in regard to whether your God will confer salvation on us.  Such a God would do as it pleased regardless of our wishes.  It gives me some comfort that I do not believe in such a god, although, if I did, I would prefer to believe like you that this god has decided to save everyone no matter how they behave.

I would say that's a great misconstuement. Much like the 'choose-a-horse' analogy you tried to use once, all external factors influence is the kind of choices faced. Not the internal choice itself.

I said that they determine the internal compulsions that govern our choices.  If internal compulsions are ultimately defined by circumstances external to ourselves, then we have no "free will" in Tony's sense.  We do not choose to be what we are.  We are all limited by our circumstances.  While we cannot control what we most desire to do, we can feel frustrated when we wish conditions surrounding a choice left us with better options.  That is when we feel that we do not have freedom of choice.  Free will is nothing more than the ability to do what you most desire to do if you could choose the circumstances.

Quote from: Copernicus on December 04, 2008, 07:48:04 PM

I said that they determine the internal compulsions that govern our choices.  If internal compulsions are ultimately defined by circumstances external to ourselves, then we have no "free will" in Tony's sense.  We do not choose to be what we are.  We are all limited by our circumstances.  While we cannot control what we most desire to do, we can feel frustrated when we wish conditions surrounding a choice left us with better options.  That is when we feel that we do not have freedom of choice. Free will is nothing more than the ability to do what you most desire to do if you could choose the circumstances.

Hehe. I would say that's only true for things like being born a certain ethnicity, or race, or gender, etc. In short it's only true for external reality, because we have no say in the matter. But though we have no choice in being what we are, we have complete free will in choosing to be who we are. And no external circumstances defines this. Rather it's the internal choice that shows itself in the face of external circumstances. Much like a circumstance to choose to be brave or a coward. The circumstance doesn't make one brave or a coward, rather it's the internal response to such a circumstance.

End Bringer, did Jacob and Esau have free wills in choosing to be what they ended up being? . . .


"For, not as yet being born, nor putting into practice anything good or bad, that the purpose of God may be remaining as a choice, not out of acts, but of Him Who is calling,
 it was declared to her that "The greater shall be slaving for the inferior" (Romans 9:11,12).

The purpose of God is remaining as a choice, not man's choice but God's.

The case of Jacob and Esau does not agree with your reality map.

Tony

Dear Zag,
You certainly give some ideas worthy of thoughtful consideration as do all of you others who have posted to this thread.

I think "faith-obedience" has more to do with being able to obey God once we have faith, the faith of Jesus Christ, the faith God gives us to have faith in what God has done though His Son's faith in going to the cross.

It is in believing this good news that we are led to this obedience. I don't think Paul, in using the word "obedience" that he infers a free-will concept tied to it.

For instance, he also stated "Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful" (Rom 9:16).

And believers are not ". . . begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of [the will of] God" (John 1:13).

It is interesting to note that in the phrase "the will of man" that man does have a will. There are also those who are "willing" and search out ways of being saved but God does not give it to them in this life.

Copernicus wrote:

It gives me some comfort that I do not believe in such a god, although, if I did, I would prefer to believe like you that this god has decided to save everyone no matter how they behave.

I see God has given you a good heart.

Lets go where no man has travelled before.. at least to not my satisfaction...

Esua

The rejected/not chosen according to Paul.

Now, Tony, you and I agree somewhat...

Jacob was "chosen" by ... that election might stand.

Yet Paul uses the word obedience in this letter.  So what gives?

Is Paul confused?

No, I don't think Paul is confused. The "obedience of faith" is in the genitive case. "Faith's obedience" and "obedience of faith" is the same thing. Son of God and "God's Son" = same thing in the genitive.

Paul knows that children just born cannot make a choice.  But Paul looks back into history and sees a story... a God story.

He even goes before the time they were born. They could not make a choice prior to being born so the greater (Esau) will be slaving for the inferior (Jacob) due to God's intention and His choice.

Rom 9:12 it was declared to her that "The greater shall be slaving for the inferior,

But yet Paul states that this is about "obedience" too.  So... how to explain that..

How can Paul fit "obedience" into a story that deals with those not yet born?   Hmmm...

I guess we need to see where obedience is used in Romans and see if it is ever related to the Jacob and Esau story.

Here are all the verses in Romans where "obedience" is used:

(Rom 1:5)  Jesus Christ, our Lord, through Whom we obtained grace and apostleship for faith-obedience among all the nations, for His name's sake,

(Rom 5:19)  For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

(Rom 6:16)  Are you not aware that to whom you are presenting yourselves as slaves for obedience, his slaves you are, whom you are obeying, whether of Sin for death, or of Obedience for righteousness?

(Rom 15:18)  For I am not daring to speak any of what Christ does not effect through me for the obedience of the nations, in word and work,

(Rom 16:19)  For your obedience reached out to all. Over you, then, am I rejoicing. Now I am wanting you to be wise, indeed, for good, yet artless for evil."

(Rom 16:26)  yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience -"

Interesting that Paul starts out and ends the epistle with "faith-obedience."

"The Greek akoee means "hearing" and its prefix hup- is abbreviated from hupo, "under." Hence "faith-obedience" stands for the subjection of faith under that which is heard,* namely the Word of God and of the Lord.
 
 "It is conceivable that Saul realized very early in his service for the Lord that Christ was indeed the consummation of law for righteousness; hence faith-obedience is not evidenced by any virtuous acts and noble deeds. Faith-obedience is rather a figure of speech which means that obedience to the authority of the Mosaic law has been succeeded by faith in the words of the Lord which Saul had heard and was going to hear, while listening in voluntary submission as if saying, "What shall I be doing, Lord?"
(Herman Rocke, Unsearchable Riches vol.69)

Faith is believing what God has said.

I'm gonna have to break up that Herman Rocke very delicately... there is something wrong with the quote you gave... and I disagree with that quote you gave.  But I don't know much about his fella but this quote doesn't impress me at all.  Actually I can't find any reason to agree with this guy.