Stathei, it seems to me that the prototypical American conservative is pro-gun, although there are many exceptions.  That prototype also tends to be more deeply religious.  Everyone has to reconcile beliefs that might otherwise appear to conflict, and Christ is often associated with non-violence, redemption, and reconciliation.  There are a few places in the NT where Christ gets his back up--e.g. when he kicked the moneylenders out of the Temple.  In my experience, Christians evoke those few images when they want to justify behavior that would otherwise seem un-Jesuslike.  But I do think that the pro-gun and Jesus memes are somewhat uncomfortable with each other.  They just have to co-inhabit the same American Conservative "memeplex".  I don't think that conservative Europeans have this problem, because their culture does  not have a very active gun lobby.

Joel, may you and your wife always stay sober, sane, and cool.  With all those guns around, there isn't a lot of room for anyone to lose control of sound judgment.

Joel, feel free not to answer if this is too personal, but why the need for so much personal protection?

I agree, End, but Joel seems to be within arm's reach of a gun wherever he goes in home or in his truck. I was just wondering if he had a special concern or if he just likes to be well armed.

I hope no one ever steals your car or robs your house, Joel - your guns will be in the wrong hands and the innocent may suffer, unless you're in of course  .

Clearly you think your guns are very cool, and that you must be cool by association. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you really seem to be itching for an excuse to kill someone - you certainly don't want to be caught without a weapon when the bad guy shows up (or the varmint, for that matter). Killing a bad guy? How cool is that? Not very, I'm sure Jesus would say.

The only way I can compare this to your Christianity is the paradox of both. We are "fallen" because God made us that way but only He can save us. Guns are in the hands of the bad guys because of the second amendment but only the second amendment can save us.

The reality is that your Christianity and your lust for the gun are cultural, geographic phenomena - and both are equally depressing.

Joel, I think you missed my first point - I meant that I hope no one steals your car or robs your house when you aren't around. This is far, far, more likely than your fantasy of a home invasion. Your guns will then be on the market and could easily put the innocent at risk. This is also more likely than your fantasy heroic rescue of McDonald's customers - it's probably more likely that your guns will end up being used in a McDonald's shooting than they will be the savior.

Jesus may have armed guards at his church, but he had a rational reason for it - you have no rational reason for all this heat beyond the above fantasies. Believe me, I'd love it if you showed up when I was hiding behind the counter in McDonald's - but I'd much rather the shooter wasn't there in the first place. That is the whole point.

I'm not sure why you say you don't think guns, and you with guns, are cool - it is clear from the above posts that you love guns and that you see yourself as some sort of protector of the innocent and potential hero trained in the ways of the secret service. I'll let your posts above speak for themselves - I was going to quote examples of you thinking you are cool, but there are too many.

The car example is not really helping your argument at all, although that is one cool car and if I had one I would certainly think I was cool by association.

You can trust in your running shoes stath

Jesus, what is wrong with you guys? Every Christian who has offered an opinion - you, SJ and End, has equated my desire to reduce death from guns with cowardice. I'm not the one who needs a gun to make me feel like a man.

"Joel, I think you missed my first point - I meant that I hope no one steals your car or robs your house when you aren't around."

Yes, I missed your point. It was easy to do after all your false accusations about my supposed fantasies.

" This is far, far, more likely than your fantasy of a home invasion."

You are right, it is more likely to suffer a burglary when I am not at home than a home invasion while I am home. I don't know why you say it is a fantasy though, for one, I don't fantasize about it, and another, it CAN happen. I'd rather be prepared for one, than unprepared.

"Your guns will then be on the market and could easily put the innocent at risk."

A few may be stolen, have you ever tried to move a gun vault??? It would be far more likely that they would be used for mostly the same purposes I have them for than for armed robberies. They would be far more likely used for hunting and target shooting. This is rural S. Dakota,  not Detroit, New Orleans. or D.C. There really isn't much of a market for hot guns for bad purposes here.

"This is also more likely than your fantasy heroic rescue of McDonald's customers - it's probably more likely that your guns will end up being used in a McDonald's shooting than they will be the savior."

There you go again accusing me of fantasizing. I do NOT fantasize. Being prepared willing and able is a totally different animal and mind-set.

"Jesus may have armed guards at his church, but he had a rational reason for it - you have no rational reason for all this heat beyond the above fantasies."

You are the one fantasizing about my motives stathei .

"Believe me, I'd love it if you showed up when I was hiding behind the counter in McDonald's"

Glad you see it that way, that could happen.  Would definitely NOT happen if only the bad guys had the guns though.

" but I'd much rather the shooter wasn't there in the first place. That is the whole point."

That would be nice if there were no bad guys with guns, but THAT is a REAL fantasy.

"I'm not sure why you say you don't think guns, and you with guns, are cool"

Why Would I think that? I thought I was cool long before I had my first real gun. Personally property doesn't make anyone cool in my opinion, but I believe some people for various reasons may think somebody is cool because of their possessions.

 - "it is clear from the above posts that you love guns and that you see yourself as some sort of protector of the innocent and potential hero trained in the ways of the secret service."


Love guns??? NO, like them, yes.  I don't see myself as a protector of anybody accept maybe myself, wife, family, and home. I do see myself as being Capable of protecting an innocent victim if the need arrives. Trained in the ways of the secret service??? Not hardly, just basic shooting skills and local laws regarding the use of deadly force. I included that part to assure that I have had good training, and to let you know that there are ways most don't know about that will let the Law Enforcement know who is on who's side. I know that I am responsible for every projectile that I fire, and wouldn't fire one that would bring me negative consequences. You read way to much into what I write.
 

"I'll let your posts above speak for themselves - I was going to quote examples of you thinking you are cool, but there are too many."

Again stath, You read way to much into what I write.

"The car example is not really helping your argument at all,

The example shows your same inaccurate logic about me and my motives with a different example.

"although that is one cool car and if I had one I would certainly think I was cool by association."

There where we differ greatly, I don't think what one possesses make one cool. I see a guy driving a cool car, and my thinking is cool car. NOT cool driver.

"Jesus, what is wrong with you guys? Every Christian who has offered an opinion - you, SJ and End, has equated my desire to reduce death from guns with cowardice."

You took me wrong if thats what you got from me. I just feel it would be better to be returning fire, than just being a moving target. AND getting a shooter distracted from his innocent targets.

Reducing death from guns sounds like a noble desire, but that is just a fantasy.
Get rid of guns, and there will just be just as many deaths that will be more brutally accomplished. I'd rather take a bullet to the heart than a knife to the lungs or club to the head any day if I had to be killed by a bad guy.

" I'm not the one who needs a gun to make me feel like a man."

Me neither, but I know I would have a lot easier time rescuing your hind end from a shooter with my gun than by yelling at him or challenging him to a fist fight.

It seems you are almost trying to make me out to be the vigilante type Charles Bronson portrayed in "Death Wish". I assure you, I am not.  However, if we had 50 guys like him working some of the bad neighborhoods, crime of all types would plummet rapidly.

Tell us what the government would need to "dish" to justify an armed insurrection. Give a specific example, because I really can not imagine a realistic scenario.

Khmer Rouge ... Darfur ... Slobodan Milosvic ... Hitler ... Staln ... Mao. History is full of governments who oppress both their enemies and their own people.

I would like to ask one question, not being particularly educated on matters of firearms. How does one go about stopping people who'd use guns for ill purposes, from using them for ill purposes? Simply by making them harder to attain, or what?

That makes sense. But what sort of gun control laws would you consider sufficiently strict?