Topic: Does God Require Violence? (Read 1851 times)

Zagzagel · « **on:** January 07, 2009, 06:19:13 PM »

Here is something written by Pastor Ama Zenya : http://www.liberationtheology.org/library/Does_God_Require_Violence.pdf

Ama Zenya raises some very important points. I would suggest that you view Rob Bells "The God's arent Angry" video (if you are able) to see some correlations. This might be an eye opener for some.... maybe.

Anyways.. happy reading/viewing. :)

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #1 on:** January 08, 2009, 12:20:13 AM »

I wasn't impressed. It struck me as superficial and out of touch with the complexities of reality. I think too that she really soft pedaled the passages where God was 'violent.' An honest thinker who deplores violence might be happy that this particular woman has a nonviolent conception of God but wouldn't seriously think she had resolved the numerous difficult Bible passages she summarily dismissed. (What about the Passover, for example?)

I think there are also numerous nuances to the question that she avoids.

For example, the violence of the Nazis was certainly deplorable. It took violence to stop the violence. We need not be happy about that fact, but it is a fact. Would Ama have preferred that the world just rolled over and let the Nazis exterminate whole populations? Perhaps the Nazis would have been impressed by the 'Christian' attitude and repented? Is that the implication? And yet it seems clear that the Nazis would have been impressed all right- nothing like the path to the least resistance in one's quest for world domination.

I don't think her outlook reflects the real world, real history, and the real Bible. This does not mean that we have to reconcile ourselves to violence as part of God's perfect plan. I only mean that it seems like some other kind of reconciliation than the one she offers seems required.

Tony N · « **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2009, 08:30:47 AM »

St.Johnny, the Christian churches in Germany taught their clergy to accept whatever their Government did and to not fight it. So they did just roll over.

Of course, if you know what I believe about obedience to the government you would know that we are to pray for it, give honor to whom honor is due, pay our taxes etc. for God has set each governemt over us.

End Bringer · « **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2009, 03:54:54 PM »

Quote from: Tony N on January 12, 2009, 08:30:47 AM

St.Johnny, the Christian churches in Germany taught their clergy to accept whatever their Government did and to not fight it. So they did just roll over.

Of course, if you know what I believe about obedience to the government you would know that we are to pray for it, give honor to whom honor is due, pay our taxes etc. for God has set each governemt over us.

And those same passages give pretty clear indications on what to expect from the government in return. As such when those in power abuse their position and fall away from what the government's duty is suppose to be, there comes a point where Christians can in good concious overthrow the government through violent means. Heck, I'd go so far to say we're even obligated to do so, and the churches in Germany failed miserably.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #4 on:** January 12, 2009, 04:34:59 PM »

Quote

St.Johnny, the Christian churches in Germany taught their clergy to accept whatever their Government did and to not fight it. So they did just roll over.

Yes, but I wasn't referring to them.

stathei · « **Reply #5 on:** January 17, 2009, 10:48:00 PM »

Good to see you are still wondering if Superman could vanquish Batman

God is pretend, therefore God can not require violence.

Your subject should be, "Does Belief in God Require Violence?", to which the answer is, of course, "Yes".

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #6 on:** January 17, 2009, 11:31:58 PM »

That's just stupid.

It is mystifying that atheists can still say crap like that in light of the history of the last century.

End Bringer · « **Reply #7 on:** January 18, 2009, 03:29:33 AM »

Quote from: sntjohnny on January 17, 2009, 11:31:58 PM

That's just stupid.

It is mystifying that atheists can still say crap like that in light of the history of the last century.

Well there's atheist's, then there's stathei. So it's not THAT mystifying.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #8 on:** January 18, 2009, 09:31:53 PM »

Good point.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #9 on:** January 21, 2009, 09:34:21 PM »

Your subject should be, "Does Belief in God Require Violence?", to which the answer is, of course, "Yes".

First... If you believe that "should be" this subject then create your own. This subject is actually specific.

Obviously no one has viewed Rob Bell's video - "The god's aren't angry".

And Tony... this is not where I am going with this.

Let me regress a little.

Once upon a time I asked the question... "Why does God require blood?".

I searched amongst the scholars for this very question that bothered me deeply.. cause I know God can just forgive. But why kill.. why blood?

I must say that no one had any answer for this question of mine. Some said that this was just something that happened without a real reason.. I forget the word for that...hmmm. was it...?? :)

Anyhoo...

I'll get more specific about this as I contemplate it... but some might know where I'm going with this.. especially seeing the wisdom of Rob's view. It's cool actually and makes great sense... imo

Stat.. lol

Create your own topic buddy! :)

End Bringer · « **Reply #10 on:** January 21, 2009, 10:05:10 PM »

Quote from: Zagzagel on January 21, 2009, 09:34:21 PM

Once upon a time I asked the question... "Why does God require blood?".

I searched amongst the scholars for this very question that bothered me deeply.. cause I know God can just forgive. But why kill.. why blood?

Because then there would be no justice. You can say "But God can just forgive." no matter what the crime is. I believe Mother Theresa made the same case in regard to the death penalty. And she was wrong because the view proves too much. Life sentance instead? But God can just forgive. 15-25 years? But God can just forgive. Community service? But God can just forgive. It abolishes any kind of punishment. And as God is just, He demands some form of payment for one's wrongs. That God decides to be mericiful is His perogative, though some form of consequence is still always demanded, and when God isn't merciful He's well justified.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #11 on:** January 22, 2009, 09:02:26 AM »

Quote

Because then there would be no justice. You can say "But God can just forgive." no matter what the crime is.

Actually, I think it goes deeper than that. "The life of a creature is in its blood...."

Zagzagel · « **Reply #12 on:** January 25, 2009, 07:13:42 PM »

Because then there would be no justice. You can say "But God can just forgive."

There are ample proofs that God can forgive without violence.. shedding of blood.

Does God really require blood for blood... eye for eye.. tooth for tooth, etc?

Is there ONLY justice in an eye for an eye? Is that God's justice in your understanding?

I don't understand it that way.

What about the words of our Saviour who said.. seven fold? Is this a limit? And what about Paul who understood this when he wrote to them Corinth Christians who didn't obey the wisdom of their savior... about taking each other to court?

There is so much here but I want to concentrate on something specific, actually.

Again, there is ample proof that God can/will forgive without one shedding blood. God honors faith. Does faith require one to kill? Killing is an act of violence. Does God require violence? Especially of this sort? Nope.. not to my understanding.

God is justified in his mercy. Justice is found in God's choosing. But yet "justice" must meet the crime.. as we say. LOL. Eye for eye? Tooth for tooth?

Just some thoughts.

End Bringer · « **Reply #13 on:** January 25, 2009, 08:10:15 PM »

Quote from: Zagzagel on January 25, 2009, 07:13:42 PM

Because then there would be no justice. You can say "But God can just forgive."

There are ample proofs that God can forgive without violence.. shedding of blood.

Not really, as His greatest act of forgiveness required Christ's very violent sacrifice.

Quote

Does God really require blood for blood... eye for eye.. tooth for tooth, etc?

Is there ONLY justice in an eye for an eye? Is that God's justice in your understanding?

Absolutely. One recieves that which one gives. Reap what you sow. The Bible is full of how justice is balanced in how the punishment fits the crime.

Quote

What about the words of our Saviour who said.. seven fold? Is this a limit? And what about Paul who understood this when he wrote to them Corinth Christians who didn't obey the wisdom of their savior... about taking each other to court?

You mean about areas of personal quibbling like hurt feelings, insults, etc.? That's a whole different area than actual crime.

Quote

Again, there is ample proof that God can/will forgive without one shedding blood. God honors faith. Does faith require one to kill? Killing is an act of violence. Does God require violence? Especially of this sort? Nope.. not to my understanding.

You offer no proof. Just more assertion. One that apparently misses the core of Christianity being that God's mercy was indeed paid for by the Blood of the Lamb.

Anthony Horvath · « **Reply #14 on:** January 25, 2009, 10:28:00 PM »

There are instances where God forgave without the shedding of blood. And yet, the whole Jewish sacrificial system went through the messy business of requiring blood be spilt in order to attain 'forgiveness.' Zag, I think you were right along side me when we confronted... Shiloh or was it Nojc... with this fact and this question: If God can forgive without the shedding of blood then why ever require it at all?

On the terms of Judaism and the OT alone the question remains a conundrum, I think. But if the NT is added into it, I think what we realize is that, of course, the death of the animals themselves never secured forgiveness. How was forgiveness then attained if not by animal sacrifice? I would contend that all forgiveness for all men throughout all time was actually accomplished in that singular act on the cross.

So, in point of fact, God never did forgive without the shedding of blood. People were counted forgiven- because of their faith- on account of the crucifixion of Jesus. The patriarchs were redeemed in exactly the same way and in exactly the same event as the apostles- as well as for ourselves.

Insofar as we forgive people without the shedding of blood, properly speaking maybe even we don't. We forgive as we have been forgiven. Ie, when we forgive someone else we merely 'credit' to another the forgiveness that they have already secured under God- and this was by blood.

Tony N · « **Reply #15 on:** January 26, 2009, 02:23:32 PM »

Zag, by you asking, Why does God require blood, do you mean, Why did God require His Son go to the cross so that mankind could be saved when, after all, He could just save His Son all the gore and tell all humanity, You are saved?

Is that the gist of what you are asking?

Tony

Zagzagel · « **Reply #16 on:** January 28, 2009, 09:17:20 PM »

sntj.. Good thoughts/questions. You are close... very close

EB.. I understand why you argue from that stance.. been there

Tony (uni) I'm not asking why God couldn't do it the way it was done.. it was necessary for the human heart for God to do it this way. The human heart God understands better than we could understand ourselves.

God knows that WE desire blood.. a scapegoat... So God gives us what we desire. Are we satisfied??

reign16 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 29, 2009, 03:40:47 AM »

no God not allowed violence because God is prince of peace!!!

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Zagzagel · « **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2009, 04:56:55 PM »

no God not allowed violence because God is prince of peace!!!

Totally scriptural. Amen. I agree. Yet however... Even though

Jesus (God) is indeed the Prince of Peace. According to the NT scriptures this peace is attained through the blood (a violience of an act) of the human man called The Christ... The Son OF God. So why this allowed non-peaceful approach for the God who is peaceful?

And what is this "peace"? I think there are clues in the NT writings that speak of this.

First of all.. God is not pleased with animal sacrifice.. nor does it do away with sins. So why the heck did God allow it? Again.. the humans desired this.

Careful reading suggests that another possible answer is within our grasp.. and many were justified without blood already knowing this. Yet God was willing to use violence because this is how humans understand a concept of forgiveness. But yet scripture shows that God was never pleased with this.. not only in the NT writings but with the OT writings as well.

Prince of Peace? Yes, for sure.

Zagzagel · « **Reply #19 on:** February 01, 2009, 05:25:52 PM »

Here is an interesting scripture to think about... which deals with what will Jesus do for humans....

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

Jesus, here, is speaking of himself. He informs his audience that flesh doesn't profit anyone... or "nothing". But rather his future acts should be valued in a spiritual sense....

With other words.. IT IS GOD who will give life... the flesh profits nothing.

So what does this really mean? :)

Author Topic: Does God Require Violence? (Read 1851 times)

stathei