Is there conscious suffering in a Hell? I just checked every passage where "Hell" is used literally and in not one instance was it used of conscious suffering. Only in the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is there a figurative suffering. But in that parable the word behind "Hell" is "Hades." Kind of interesting don't you think?

The common Christian concept is that hell is a place where there is presently a devil or a bunch of devils with pitchforks and them tormenting the d--ned. We have the dark ages with their wild imagination to thank for this concept. But just... try to think this through to its logical conclusion. If there is such a place and if it is for eternity then God made such a place on purpose and created billions of humans for the sole purpose of casting them into such a place for eternity. Is that really the kind of loving Father we serve?

E B replied:
Your flaw here is that this concept isn't at all compatible with how the Bible describes Hell, and so can't be held as the Christian position. There's no doubt it is described as a place of suffering and unrest, but the form in which it takes is not bound to be only in the physicality in which it is often described as.

Tony's reply:
Dear E_B Please give some new testament verses which describe "Hell" as a place of suffering and unrest. Remember, it must use the word "Hell." So you think my argument has a flaw in it? If God didn't create a place of "eternal torment" (if such a place actually exists) who did? And if He did, for what reason? And since all who experience salvation is due to God,  how is that place not made only for those He created that He didn't give faith to?

Tony wrote: So if those billions of people go to such an eternal fate, would it not be the the fault of God since He did not draw them?

EB replied:
Fault? No. Any responsibility God has is no more than the responsibility the government has when someone gets a ticket because the speed limit was at 30mph and not 100mph. He's done all He's needed to do to allow everyone redemption, and God wasn't required to save us at all anyway. It takes two to establish a relationship.

Tony's reply:
Your argument is apples to oranges. Now then, if the Government made the speed limit 30 and gave out cars to individuals they selected that would abide by that limit and the rest got cars purposely made that could not go under 30mph then you'd have an argument. In that case the Govt. would be responsible for those whose cars could not abide by the 30mph limit. Likewise God created humanity flesh knowing full well in advance that:

Romans 8:5-8 CLV  "For those who are in accord with flesh are disposed to that which is of the flesh, yet those who are in accord with spirit to that which is of the spirit."  (6)  For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace,  (7)  because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able."  (8)  Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God."

You see that? Who's responsible for that? God created mankind flesh so they would be at enmity to Him (vs.7). God created mankind flesh so they would not be able to please Him (vs.8). Due to this condition God created mankind, we see:

Romans 3:10-23 CLV  "Not one is just- not even one."  (11)  Not one is understanding. Not one is seeking out God.  (12)  All avoid Him: at the same time they were useless. Not one is doing kindness: there is not even one!"  (13)  A sepulcher opened is their throat. With their tongues they defraud."The venom of asps is under their lips."  (14)  Whose mouth with imprecation and bitterness is crammed.  (15)  Sharp are their feet to shed blood.  (16)  Bruises and wretchedness are in their ways,  (17)  And the way of peace they do not know."  (18)  There is no fear of God in front of their eyes. . . (23)  for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God.

Tony wrote: I realize modern Christendumb (misspelled on purpose) has God's P.R. men who invented the idea that it is all up to the human to save themselves by their own free-will. This theory took the responsibility off of God's shoulders (where it rightfully belongs) and put it on man's.

EB replied:
Nothing so "modern" about it. And neither is the whinning from the guilty to blame someone else, as that's as old as Genesis. The Bible's clear in that salvation only comes from God, but it still takes an act of will to accept it.

Tony's reply:
The biblical facts are that man cannot save himself, only God can. Any choice we make is relative to and dependent upon the original choice God made to save us before the disruption of the world. Otherwise we can't believe. So God is still responsible for our salvation.

Tony wrote:
But John 6:44 is against such a concept as is Romans 9:16:

"Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful."

EB replied: Your usage of quotes only show a need to cut-and-past lines out of context of what is being said to further fuel your prejudice. As John 6:44 immediately follows an admonishment from people who came only to see Christ perform miracles like a circus show, and basicly was saying no one can come to salvation through such petty motives. Romans 9:16 was Paul talking about justification with particular refrence to the Jews. And even later admonishes your own very attitude in Romans 9:19.

Tony's reply:
I used John 6:44 correctly. I think you need to re-read the narrative. They spoke of Manna, Jesus said He is the true Manna.  Here is the conversation:

John 6:28-45 CLV  They said, then, to Him, "What may we be doing that we may be working the works of God?  (29)  Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you may be believing in that One Whom He commissions."  (30)  They said, then, to Him, "What sign, then, are you doing, that we may be perceiving and should be believing you? What are you working?  (31)  Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, according as it is written, Bread out of heaven He gives them to eat."  (32)  Jesus, then, said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, not Moses has given you the bread out of heaven,  (33)  but My Father is giving you Bread out of heaven, the true, for the Bread of God is He Who is descending out of heaven and giving life to the world."  (34)  They said, then, to Him, "Lord! always be giving us this Bread!"  (35)  Jesus, then, said to them, "I am the Bread of life. He who is coming to Me should under no circumstances be hungering, and he who is believing in Me will under no circumstances ever be thirsting."  (36)  But I said to you that you have also seen Me and you are not believing Me.  (37)  All that which the Father is giving to Me shall be arriving to Me, and he who is coming to Me I should under no circumstances be casting out,  (38)  for I have descended from heaven, not that I should be doing My will, but the will of Him Who sends Me."  (39)  Now this is the will of Him Who sends Me, that all which He has given to Me, of it I should be losing nothing, but I shall be raising it in the last day."  (40)  For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who is beholding the Son and believing in Him may have life eonian, and I shall be raising him in the last day."  (41)  The Jews, then, murmured concerning Him, that He said, "I am the Bread which descends out of heaven."  (42)  And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, with whose father and mother we are acquainted? How, then, is he saying that 'Out of heaven have I descended'?  (43)  Jesus, then, answered and said to them, "Do not murmur with one another."  (44)  No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day.  (45)  It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Everyone, then, who hears from the Father and is learning the truth, is coming to Me."

Did you see that? . . . "All that which the Father is giving to Me shall be arriving to Me, and he who is coming to Me I should under no circumstances be casting out, "
44)  "No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him."
(45) "It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Everyone, then, who hears from the Father and is learning the truth, is coming to Me."

If the Father does not give so and so to Jesus they won't be coming to Him and won't be believing in Him.
If one is not drawn to Jesus by the Father then they can't come to Him to believe in Him. Therefore the buck stops with God. He alone is responsible for our salvation.
If one is not hearing from the Father and is not learning the truth is not coming to Jesus. They have to hear from the Father and learn the truth from Him first. The responsibility is with God, not man.

Romans 9:19 is in my favor:  "You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?" God blames even when such ones cannot resist His intention. It shows God in full control. And Romans 9 thru 11 is all about God being in charge of why Israel was set aside and grace given to the nations.

Tony wrote: The concept of eternal torment is completely incompatible with the God of the Bible. It turns God into a heartless ogre far worse than the gods of the heathens.

EB replied: Or alternatively it makes God just to send the guilty and those who reject Him to where they logically belong. People who want seperation from God and His everlasting life, get seperation from His everlasting life. Seems more than reasonable.

Tony's reply:
Eternal torment is just? The guilty and those who reject Him logically belong in eternal torment? Think of what you are saying!  If they want separation from God it is God's fault because He made them flesh. Remember what I wrote earlier on flesh above in my response?

Guilty of what? Remember, God did not choose them before the disruption. He made them vessels of indignation. He did not give them faith. He made them flesh. It would be God's fault if anyone goes to your "Hell" for eternity due to unbelief.

Tony wrote: I thank God that 1 Timothy 2:4-6 is true as is 1 Timothy 4:10 (that's why I am doing 4:11 as I am told to do).

Let's be noble like the Bereans and study these things to see if they are so. (Acts 17:11)

Tony

EB replied: Funny how you quote 1 Timothy 4:11 when it seems the necessity is gone by your own argument. Really, what's the point of God commanding that we teach and witness others of His salvation, if you actively reject that salvation isn't up to people's will in any amount and it's all God's fault/responsibility? I don't recall Christ ever saying 'Well everyone's off the hook, just go about doing what you were doing since there's no ultimate consequence for your sins or not listening to me from this point on.' Seems that would put a cramp on your view of Hell and salvation, wouldn't it?

Tony's reply: We preach to mankind so that those who are chosen to believe will believe. We don't preach because we think man has a free-will to accept or reject the good news. Look at Paul speaking to the people in Acts. One person came forward named Lydia. Why? "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, revering God, heard, whose heart the Lord opens up to heed what is spoken by Paul" (Act 16:14). See that? God had to open her heart for her to heed. The other women (plural) did not heed.
Just those who are set for life eonian can believe:
Act 13:48 "Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian." If God doesn't set one for life eonian they can't believe. Notice it is not the other way around. You don't set yourself for life eonian by believing.

 No one said there are no consequences for our sins. Now you are confusing the issues. This isn't about our sins. It is about Eternal Torment and why was it created (if indeed it was) and Why would God send anyone there for not believing since they have no choice in the matter of believing to begin with.

As to sins: God is going to pay everyone in accord with their acts. Even we believers are disciplined NOW so as not to be condemned with the world (see 1 Cor.11:32). There is no sin for which eternal torment is just. No, not one.

Dear E_B, I thought I would constipate (or rather "concentrate") on this area first since it is such a strong human tradition elevating itself against the truth of God which said tradition needs brought down i.e., free-will and God's pre-cognition.

Tony wrote before:
Romans 9:19 is in my favor:  "You will be protesting to me, then, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood His intention?" God blames even when such ones cannot resist His intention. It shows God in full control. And Romans 9 thru 11 is all about God being in charge of why Israel was set aside and grace given to the nations.

E_B replied:
And Romans 9:20 is in my favor. That everything happens according to God's will isn't eclusive to people's peronal choice. It's simply that in God's omniscience he knows what we are going to choose and act according to His intents beforehand. Before the world was even created as a matter of fact.

I don't see how you can say Romans 9:20 is in your favor. Here it is: "O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded will not protest to the molder, "Why do you make me thus?" God did not just pre-see what a person would be like and give them a chance or a crack at salvation within that state. GOD MAKES EACH PERSON THE WAY THEY ARE. HE MOLDS THEM. And these vessels cannot walk about and do their own will.  God carries these vessels of indignation which HE MADE *AS* VESSELS OF INDIGNATION to their assigned destination:

Rom 9:22 Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation, adapted for destruction,

It is not as your paradigm suggests that God just saw these vessels in the future become vessels of indignation. He made them that way.

Tony wrote before:
Just those who are set for life eonian can believe:
Act 13:48 "Now on hearing this, the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and they believe, whoever were set for life eonian." If God doesn't set one for life eonian they can't believe. Notice it is not the other way around. You don't set yourself for life eonian by believing.

E_B replied:
You actually do. God who know all-things, just knows the choice beforehand.

Tony's reply: You actually do not set yourself for life eonian. You reversed the order. It actually says "Those who are set for life eonian, believe." You think God's will is just what God sees in the future. This is not the case. Here is proof God does not just see the future, He makes the future:

Isaiah 46:9-10 KJV  "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,  (10)  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure."

He does not just see the end from the beginning He declares the end from the beginning. His declarations are what must come to pass. God did not look into some sort of Evangelical Free-will crystal ball and see who might choose Him.

E_B wrote before:
And just because all who experienced salvation is due to God, namely due to Him giving salvation in the first place, it doesn't mean there is absolutely no choice or options from the other side of the table. God gave salvation for everyone, but people still have to willfully accept it, just as they have to willfully accept any curative medacine that may be available for everyone.

Tony's reply:
All choices we made are predicated upon God first choosing us for salvation, otherwise we could not believe. I'm glad you say "they ***have to*** willfully accept it." That's my point. If they are chosen by God then they have to willfully accept it. 

Now that we got that out of the way and hopefully God will give it to you to see this truth of His sovereignty (otherwise you won't get it) for "no one can receive anything unless it is given to them by God" and that includes salvation and seeing His sovereignty, let's move on to the other points you made, shall we?

******** NEXT:

Tony's wrote before:
Dear E_B Please give some new testament verses which describe "Hell" as a place of suffering and unrest. Remember, it must use the word "Hell." So you think my argument has a flaw in it? If God didn't create a place of "eternal torment" (if such a place actually exists) who did? And if He did, for what reason? And since all who experience salvation is due to God,  how is that place not made only for those He created that He didn't give faith to?

E_B replied:
I don't really have to be bound by your narrow criteria as any OT verses would still apply. But Matthew 5:22 seems to apply. And while you note that "Hades" seems to be different, Revelation 20: 11-14 does describe those on the final judgement to be thrown in a "lake of fire" with no indication of ever getting out. 2 Thessalonians 1:3-12 speaks of "everlasting destruction" which seems to indicate it's not at all temporary. So yeah, I think Hell is a bit more permanent than others may try to paint it as.

Nope, Matthew 5:22 does not even seem to apply to my question as to where the Bible says humans suffer in Hell.

Next you bring up Mat 5:22 Yet I am saying to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judging. Yet whoever may be saying to his brother, 'Raka!' shall be liable to the Sanhedrin. Yet whoever may be saying, 'Stupid!' shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire.

Matthew 5:22 is not about "Hell" but "Gehenna" which is the valley just to the south of the city of Jerusalem in which a trash dump will be re-instituted during the millennial reign of Christ in the future on earth.

Next you bring up Revelation 20:11-14 to try to prove people suffer in Hell? Nope. The Lake of fire is not Hell but is said to be the second death. It is the second death because it is a repetition of the first death which is the complete absence of life.

Next you bring up  2 Thessalonians 1:3-12. Nope, not about conscious suffering in Hell either.


2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 CLV  (6)  if so be that it is just of God to repay affliction to those afflicting you,  (7)  and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers,  (8)  in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ"  (9)  who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength"

I believe His messengers (or angels) are (figuratively) flaming fire and that the above is concerning EXTERMINATION from the face of the Lord, not conscious suffering in some sort of Hell.
By the way, E_B, if it is "everlasting destruction" then the destruction is lasting for an ever. The Bible says all the evers or aeons or eons in the Bible end. So that which is eon-lasting or ever-lasting can't be eternal and it certainly is not conscious suffering in Hell. So you have failed to prove to me conscious suffering in Hell. Got any other verses you might know of?

**************** Next:

End Bringer,
God created mankind flesh. Do you agree with this? Adam said of Eve, "this is now bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh." And what happened when the first test was given? They both failed. Why? Because God wanted them to fail. Why? So all mankind could have death enter into them and all mankind be made sinners (see Romans 5:12)  and so the Saviour could come to save all mankind from sin and death. BTW, Romans 5:12 does not say that death entered into all mankind just if they chose to accept death.

Romans 8:20-21 CLV  "For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation"  (21)  that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."

Did you see the "that" beginning verse 21? It shows a goal God has for doing these things. He does not just see them happenning, He makes it happen.