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Tony N

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Hyper-spiritualizing Christians
« on: December 24, 2008, 06:35:28 PM »
Have any of you dealt with hyper-spiritualizing Christians?

Good Lord! I just can't wrap my mind around how these people think.

For instance concerning Jesus' parable of the wheat and the tares and how He gave the true meaning of the what the wheat and the tares are:

The wheat is the sons of the kingdom.
The tares are the children of the wicked one.

But Christ's explanation for the hyper spiritual Christian is not good enough. No! They have to allegorize what the wheat and the tares are. They say that the wheat is the good part of our body and the tares is the bad part and when Christ comes back He will take out the bad part and we'll be left with the good.

But if that is what is really meant by the wheat and the tares why didn't Christ just say so?

So these christians are going from a figure to a literal back to a figure.

Why can't they just stay with what Christ said it is.

Another thing I am just now running into is when Jesus said that as the lightning flashes from the east to the west that this stands for the house of the Jews crashing down. But that is not what Jesus said. He said "as lightning flashes from the east to the west so shall the coming of the Son of man be.

Do you see why I am so frustrated?

And if you correct these people then you are just not spiritual. Good grief.  :smt101

Tony
« Last Edit: December 25, 2008, 06:57:10 AM by Tony N »
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)

Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).

Well? Are we?

Zagzagel

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Re: Hyper-spiritualizing Christians
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2008, 08:57:43 PM »
Another thing I am just now running into is when Jesus said that when the lightning flashes from the east to the west that this stands for the house of the Jews crashing down. But that is not what Jesus said. He said "as lightning flashes from the east to the west so shall the coming of the Son of man be.

Do you see why I am so frustrated?

And if you correct these people then you are just not spiritual. Good grief.

This sorta thing just leads me to study more .  When such a thing happens that contradicts my studies, then yeah, it gets frustrating...sometimes.  This then leads me into more studies.

The question then becomes.. should I become the corrector?  I feel I should be a listener.  Often enough that is what they want.  But once in a while I very peeved off with certian continuas attitudes.. then I will get more aggressive.. but I try to do it with a positive attitude.. and sometimes I fail. 
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Tony N

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Re: Hyper-spiritualizing Christians
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2008, 12:14:05 PM »
Here is an example:
I asked:
Taffy, what is the natural and the spiritual of these two sayings of Jesus:

"Mat 24:27 For even as the lightning is coming out from the east and is appearing as far as the west, thus shall be the presence of the Son of Mankind."

Mat 26:26-28  "Now at their eating, Jesus, taking the bread, and blessing, breaks it, and, giving to the disciples, said, "Take, eat. This is My body."  (27)  And taking the cup and giving thanks, He gives it to them, saying, "Drink of it all,  (28)  for this is My blood of the new covenant, that is shed for many for the pardon of sins."

Taffy responded:
Hi Tony,
There are a few suggestions else where on this thread which for me give a very good explaination of Lightening Coming from the East to the West , spoken After the Literal Temple.

I see Lightening AS a Brightness( SUN, DAY, LIGHT,Revelation, UNVEILING,Righteousness etc) , A LIGHT in regards to Christ, The LIGHT which SHINES in the Heart Of Men ,The MORNING Star Rising in our Hearts..as expounded some by Nathan , Cardinal 

His written wording of the Natural ,physical to explain the Spiritual Reality regarding the Literal  and Spiritual Temple.



 Christ , The Hidden Manna, the Hope within US all, whos body (Bread) was Broken and Blood Spilt ( wine) for the remission of Sins, Who is the New Covenant., Each  to Partake of This Bread and wine making  US whole AND Complete In HIM, receiving a Portion of Faith, Christ who is the Substance of IT, till WE ALL be Brought to the UNITY in HIM.

 


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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)

Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).

Well? Are we?

Zagzagel

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Re: Hyper-spiritualizing Christians
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2008, 01:46:40 PM »
It is not really that common for one to think this lightning is the sun which rises in the east and sets in the west.  I think that the reference to "lightning" is really a  referrance to the sun and is a strong indicator that this is the meaning. 

I think there is a connection here with the other parable of Jesus about the tree that roots itself into the earth and it fills the earth.

The implication, therefore, is that our Christ Jesus will be progressive in his goodness to earth.. as the sun rises in it's natural time and as the tree takes time to root and grow, thus shall God's sun and his seed of a tree will fill the earth.

I've heard many explanations of what this "lightning" and "tree" is by those who want to spiritual everything.. even from my fellow universalists. 

IF I am right then I didn't spiritualize anything but gave a reasonable explanation of what "lightning" means in that context and what that "tree" is in that context.  However, I don't use those scriptures to prove my held beliefs and don't need to.  Neither do those scriptures contradict my beliefs.  :)



 
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Tony N

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Re: Hyper-spiritualizing Christians
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2008, 11:40:14 AM »
The problem is, Zag, is that Jesus didn't give Matthew 24 and 25 in parable. The two chapters are to be taken at face value.

Jesus spoke to the populace in parables for this reason:

Mat 13:10-14  And, approaching, the disciples say to Him, "Wherefore art Thou speaking in parables to them?  (11)  Now, answering, He said to them that "To you has it been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, yet to those it has not been given."  (12)  For anyone who has, to him shall be given, and he shall have a superfluity. Yet anyone who has not, that also which he has shall be taken away from him."  (13)  Therefore in parables am I speaking to them, seeing that, observing, they are not observing, and hearing, they are not hearing, neither are they understanding."  (14)  And filled up in them is the prophecy of Isaiah, that is saying, '"In hearing, you will be hearing, and may by no means be understanding, And observing, you will be observing, and may by no means be perceiving."

The disciples thought it was strange He would speak to those outside His circle of disciples in parables. They were given to blind. Jesus wan't trying to blind His disciples.
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)

Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).

Well? Are we?

Zagzagel

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Re: Hyper-spiritualizing Christians
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2008, 05:38:27 PM »
Regardless, many of the NT writings that quote the words of Jesus are just not clear enough to many... so some spiritualize it.. some don't. 

Regarding your last post (about Matt 24).. I've had correspondence with another member on this forum already a few years ago.  We only disagreed on what the "timing" scriptures meant concerning that scripture.

In another old dialogue that you raised (once upon a time ago) we disagreed on what Jesus meant about self-mutilation.  You understood it spiritually and I did too but we disagreed on what it meant spiritually.. you took it more naturally at that time so I strongly disagreed.  I don't know if I could find that particular thread now.

Anyways... Just wanted to drop some words in here your thread to let you know that I am still reading this.. and still involved.

:)



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Tony N

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Re: Hyper-spiritualizing Christians
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2008, 10:09:46 AM »
Zag, you have a very good memory. I wish mine was as good.

Now you've got my curiosity up about the self-mutilation thing. I don't know if I would use the word "spiritually" but hopefully said the wrenching out of the eye and cutting off of the hand should be taken figuratively.


Mat 5:29-30  "Now, if your right eye is snaring you, wrench it out and cast it from you, for it is expedient for you that one of your members should perish and not your whole body be cast into Gehenna.  (30)  And if your right hand is snaring you, strike it off and cast it from you, for it is expedient for you that one of your members should perish and not your whole body pass away into Gehenna."

We (at least I) believe that Gehenna will literally be re-established as a trash dump to the south of Jerusalem during the 1000 year reign of Christ. In the trash dump there will be worms eating trash and cadavers where the fire has not gotten to. During that reign it will be very embarrassing to have one's dead body cast out in the open to be seen by people going by rather than be properly entombed.

Isaiah wrote of this as well:
Isa 66:23-24  And it comes, according to the monthly quota in its month, and according to the sabbath quota in its sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me in Jerusalem,says Yahweh."  (24)  And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh."

So I would have to agree with the passage Jesus spoke of that "it would be expedient for you that one of your members should perish . . . ." But I don't believe that message is for us of the nations who are saved by grace.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 07:35:45 AM by Tony N »
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)

Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).

Well? Are we?

Zagzagel

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Re: Hyper-spiritualizing Christians
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2008, 05:18:52 PM »
Zag, you have a very good memory. I wish mine was as good.

Good memory?  Only with things that did impress me.  :)

Now you've got my curiosity up about the self-mutilation thing. I don't know if I would use the word "spiritually" but hopefully said the wrenching out of the eye and cutting off of the hand should be taken figuratively.

From memory, at that time of our engagement, you never used the word "figuratively".  But I may be wrong.  Finding that thread will clear that up.  ;)

We (at least I) believe that Gehenna will literally be re-established as a trash dump to the south of Jerusalem during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

I find no reason to agree with you.  There is NO reason to establish a dump to burn bodies for what you later say.. for.. "embarrassing" reasons.  And that Isaiah quote doesn't move me.  Sorry.   :(

I know that some Christian camps outside our view (universalism) will agree with that but I find that belief quite repulsive.

Anyhoo, the whole scenerio about the 1000 years is not clear enough for any of us to make adamant claims. 

What I see is that Christ Jesus is Victorious, puts many through death ( either through beheading or the lake of fire) so that his death is then meaningful for the whole human race. 

I guess that's it for now.  :)

The New Year is upon us.. Happy New Year Brother!!  And to the one you've been dating?  You married yet??  :)



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Tony N

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Re: Hyper-spiritualizing Christians
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2009, 08:27:06 AM »
Quote from: Zagzagel on December 31, 2008, 05:18:52 PM

The New Year is upon us.. Happy New Year Brother!!  And to the one you've been dating?  You married yet??  :)


I was dating Ms. Perfect but, sad to say, she didn't find Mr. Perfect. LOL!
So, no, I'm not married *again.*
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Did God say that He "will have all mankind to be saved" or that He "will NOT have all mankind to be saved? (1Tim.2:4-6]
Did God say He IS the Saviour of all mankind, or that He "is NOT the Saviour of all mankind? (1Tim.4:10)

Well?
Are we told to "charge and teach these things" or are we told "NOT to charge and teach these things"? (1Tim.4:10,11).

Well? Are we?

Zagzagel

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Re: Hyper-spiritualizing Christians
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2009, 06:39:15 PM »
I thought I was Perfect too at one point.. but I found out the world can continue fine with out me.  :)

Some day we all will learn this.  haha
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Zagzagel

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Re: Hyper-spiritualizing Christians
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2009, 08:43:32 PM »
Just to continue this thread.. are you saying a "hyper"  IS...

Never mind.  I thnk your thoughts are totally not on targetin some ways. 


But still it gives something to think about.
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